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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds

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DerekL
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BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 09:55
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2013 BRZ tested by Edmunds and ran 15.3 @ 92.1 for 1/4 mile. Is it worth $3-4k more than the Civic Si?

http://www.insideline.com/subaru/brz/2013/2013-subaru-brz-full-test-and-video.html
RSX
Profile for RSX
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 10:11
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DerekL wrote:
2013 BRZ tested by Edmunds and ran 15.3 @ 92.1 for 1/4 mile. Is it worth $3-4k more than the Civic Si?

http://www.insideline.com/subaru/brz/2013/2013-subaru-brz-full-test-and-video.html



By comparison:

BRZ
0-60 (1ft rollout) = 7.0s
1/4 = 15.3s

Civic Si
0-60 (1ft rollout) = 6.6s
1/4 = 15.1s

The BRZ would probably own the Si in a road coarse race but I'd like to see a comparison. Very interesting.
DerekL
Profile for DerekL
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 11:17
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More numbers from Edmunds for comparison:

2013 BRZ Premium
60-0 mph (ft.) 114
Slalom, 6 x 100 ft. (mph) 69.1
Slalom, 6 x 100 ft. (mph) ESC ON 66.6
Skid pad, 200-ft. diameter (lateral g) 0.92

2012 Civic Si Coupe
60-0 mph (ft.) 120
Slalom, 6 x 100 ft. (mph) 67.3
Slalom, 6 x 100 ft. (mph) ESC ON 62.8
Skid pad, 200-ft. diameter (lateral g) 0.86

It is starting to look like I should save my money for the BRZ.
typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 12:12
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Man, that is slow! You're at risk of getting rolled by minivan if caught out of the right gear on the street. Really, 92mpg trap speed isn't much these days. AP2 S2K's were near 100mph, so much faster, not much more weight and a similarly focused driving experience.

I want to be a fan, because this is a cool car, but I can't see buying one of these until they add more HP!
CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 12:12
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Differential(s) Torsen limited-slip
lah, lah, lah ......
I can't hear you ....
Lah,lah,lah,lah ..................................................................................................................................................................................................

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 12:45
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2012 Camry Hybrid will just about match those times!!!!
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 12:49
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2012 Camry Hybrid will just about match those times!!!!
Acceleration wise, that is.
Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 12:52
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DerekL wrote:
More numbers from Edmunds for comparison:

2013 BRZ Premium
60-0 mph (ft.) 114
Slalom, 6 x 100 ft. (mph) 69.1
Slalom, 6 x 100 ft. (mph) ESC ON 66.6
Skid pad, 200-ft. diameter (lateral g) 0.92

2012 Civic Si Coupe
60-0 mph (ft.) 120
Slalom, 6 x 100 ft. (mph) 67.3
Slalom, 6 x 100 ft. (mph) ESC ON 62.8
Skid pad, 200-ft. diameter (lateral g) 0.86

It is starting to look like I should save my money for the BRZ.



But the BRZ ONLY redlines at 7000rpm, why would you want such a neutered engine? (this is sarcasm btw...)

The Civic is also about a foot longer and weighs ~150 LB more.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 12:58
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typer_801 wrote:
Man, that is slow! You're at risk of getting rolled by minivan if caught out of the right gear on the street. Really, 92mpg trap speed isn't much these days. AP2 S2K's were near 100mph, so much faster, not much more weight and a similarly focused driving experience.

I want to be a fan, because this is a cool car, but I can't see buying one of these until they add more HP!



as I said in another thread, the s2000 (AP1 and AP2) is another category or two faster than cars like the BRZ/FR-S, Civic Si, Miata, etc. Yes, many minivans (6AT Ody) and CUVs (1st and 2nd gen RDX) are quicker than this BRZ but they are surely not going to deliver the same driving experience.

I had heard from other journalists that the FR-S/BRZ drove a lot like an MX-5, including acceleration feel. Surely it will be a beast when the turbo version comes out but in the mean time hopefully there's 30-40 naturally aspirated hp to be had via aftermarket mods. That would amp up the fun factor quite a bit.
atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 13:34
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Jeff wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Man, that is slow! You're at risk of getting rolled by minivan if caught out of the right gear on the street.


as I said in another thread, the s2000 (AP1 and AP2) is another category or two faster than cars like the BRZ/FR-S, Civic Si, Miata, etc. Yes, many minivans (6AT Ody) and CUVs (1st and 2nd gen RDX) are quicker than this BRZ but they are surely not going to deliver the same driving experience.


The minivan argument was ridiculous when brought against the Civic Si, and it's even more ridiculous to bring up against the BRZ.

To people who are so convinced that a minivan is faster: go ahead and buy one for autocross. Have fun eating dust.
_Alex_
Profile for _Alex_
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 13:52
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Can't wait to see if I can replace my RX-8 with BRZ at some point.

BRZ numbers are very close to RX-8 numbers and it seems to have similar feel to it, it just a tag slower.

I recall RX-8 sold very well first few years (before the whole reliability issues start popping left and right).

BRZ should be light years ahead of Mazda and it's fuel consumption is much better as well.
It will sell quite well.

My only grip is it's size - it's really small inside, driving with kids in a back seats might be a pain.

Kudos to T & S for doing this, I hope other will follow.
PhrozeDeuce
Profile for PhrozeDeuce
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 13:59
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"The rev limiter in 2nd gear kicks in at 59.2 mph, requiring a second shift to achieve the milestone and slowing the time considerably."

Having to shift 2-3 in a 0-60 kills the time. I have no doubt that revised gearing will allow this car to hit 60 in the mid 6s. But from the very beginning, this car wasn't made for straightline acceleration. It's all about staying well composed driving dynamics in the twisties. From what I read, it does what it was designed to do very well.
gilbert
Profile for gilbert
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 14:05
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
Jeff wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Man, that is slow! You're at risk of getting rolled by minivan if caught out of the right gear on the street.


as I said in another thread, the s2000 (AP1 and AP2) is another category or two faster than cars like the BRZ/FR-S, Civic Si, Miata, etc. Yes, many minivans (6AT Ody) and CUVs (1st and 2nd gen RDX) are quicker than this BRZ but they are surely not going to deliver the same driving experience.


The minivan argument was ridiculous when brought against the Civic Si, and it's even more ridiculous to bring up against the BRZ.

To people who are so convinced that a minivan is faster: go ahead and buy one for autocross. Have fun eating dust.



Jeff is obviously talking about straight line performance as the original post was quoting drag numbers (0-60 and 1/4 mile). Obviously a miata, brz, si, etc. will smoke a minivan on an autox course...

Gilbert
typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 14:31
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Hey atomiclightbulb...lay off the 'you're so ignorant posts'. I never stated or implied a mini-van is faster than a BRZ on a racetrack or autocross course, just stated it was really slow and some soccer mom could walk you in one with her mini-van from a stoplight on the street.

-Jeff
2002 SCCA National Champion - Street Touring X (autocross)

atomiclightbulb wrote:
Jeff wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Man, that is slow! You're at risk of getting rolled by minivan if caught out of the right gear on the street.


as I said in another thread, the s2000 (AP1 and AP2) is another category or two faster than cars like the BRZ/FR-S, Civic Si, Miata, etc. Yes, many minivans (6AT Ody) and CUVs (1st and 2nd gen RDX) are quicker than this BRZ but they are surely not going to deliver the same driving experience.


The minivan argument was ridiculous when brought against the Civic Si, and it's even more ridiculous to bring up against the BRZ.

To people who are so convinced that a minivan is faster: go ahead and buy one for autocross. Have fun eating dust.



Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 14:45
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PhrozeDeuce wrote:
"The rev limiter in 2nd gear kicks in at 59.2 mph, requiring a second shift to achieve the milestone and slowing the time considerably."

Having to shift 2-3 in a 0-60 kills the time. I have no doubt that revised gearing will allow this car to hit 60 in the mid 6s. But from the very beginning, this car wasn't made for straightline acceleration. It's all about staying well composed driving dynamics in the twisties. From what I read, it does what it was designed to do very well.

I actually appreciate that the car wasn't set up for some arbitrary rating (0-60) which has no precise bearing in the real world. I mean, acceleration is acceleration, regardless if it's 0-59.2 or 0-120.

I would rather a company focus on real world performance as opposed to excelling well at on-paper tests. We've talked a lot about that on this forum in terms of fuel economy ratings-vs-real world, but I think the same should apply to gearing and other factors as well.
cforez
Profile for cforez
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 15:34
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Going by a lot of comments about how suspension tuning doesn't seem to count in making a car faster (see comments about Fit Si, CR-Z, Mugen Civic Si), somehow I don't see how these cars are going to dent sales of the Mustang (305 HP for $22.2k) or Camaro (323 HP for $23.3k) for example.

Typer is right, this car is kinda slow, and the market for cars for people who have $25k+, appreciate autocross caliber handling, and don't mind getting walked by minivans is probably not very large.
DerekL
Profile for DerekL
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 16:08
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My first new car was an 89' Civic Si (hatchback) and I also had an 86' RX-7 (non turbo). Maybe I'm looking at the BRZ as a way to get back to my youth, slow by today's standard but very fun to drive.
atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 16:16
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Then why are you talking about street racing with a minivan? That made you look like you didn't know what you were talking about.

typer_801 wrote:
Hey atomiclightbulb...lay off the 'you're so ignorant posts'. I never stated or implied a mini-van is faster than a BRZ on a racetrack or autocross course, just stated it was really slow and some soccer mom could walk you in one with her mini-van from a stoplight on the street.

-Jeff
2002 SCCA National Champion - Street Touring X (autocross)

atomiclightbulb wrote:
Jeff wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Man, that is slow! You're at risk of getting rolled by minivan if caught out of the right gear on the street.


as I said in another thread, the s2000 (AP1 and AP2) is another category or two faster than cars like the BRZ/FR-S, Civic Si, Miata, etc. Yes, many minivans (6AT Ody) and CUVs (1st and 2nd gen RDX) are quicker than this BRZ but they are surely not going to deliver the same driving experience.


The minivan argument was ridiculous when brought against the Civic Si, and it's even more ridiculous to bring up against the BRZ.

To people who are so convinced that a minivan is faster: go ahead and buy one for autocross. Have fun eating dust.







I don't think Subaru ever intended this car to compete with the Mustang and Camaro. It's way too small, and not at all designed in the tradition of a muscle car. Someone who wants a muscle car is probably not going to like anything about the BRZ.

25k is not that much for a purpose-built sports coupe. If there's decent aftermarket/tuner community support, the relatively low stock power won't be an issue in the future.

cforez wrote:
Going by a lot of comments about how suspension tuning doesn't seem to count in making a car faster (see comments about Fit Si, CR-Z, Mugen Civic Si), somehow I don't see how these cars are going to dent sales of the Mustang (305 HP for $22.2k) or Camaro (323 HP for $23.3k) for example.

Typer is right, this car is kinda slow, and the market for cars for people who have $25k+, appreciate autocross caliber handling, and don't mind getting walked by minivans is probably not very large.
cforez
Profile for cforez
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 16:56
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IIRC, the Camaro shares the same chassis as the Cadillac CTS, so it probably doesn't handle like a traditional muscle car, yet still has the muscle. So though Subaru/Toyota might not have considered cars like the Camaro as competition, buyers probably do especially considering the Camaro's price advantage...

I would imagine a lot of the reason behind the cult following of the original Hachiroku was the fact that it was inexpensive (and RWD).
PGH
Profile for PGH
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 17:14
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It's basicly a 2 door Impreza without the AWD and around 50hp more
cforez
Profile for cforez
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 17:47
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DerekL wrote:
My first new car was an 89' Civic Si (hatchback) and I also had an 86' RX-7 (non turbo). Maybe I'm looking at the BRZ as a way to get back to my youth, slow by today's standard but very fun to drive.


I get you, I have a mint Aztec Green 1992 Integra GS-R that I have a hard time letting go of, despite the maintenance issues of a 20yr old car and the fact that just about everything nowadays is faster- just because it reminds me of when I was young, haha. And it's a stick-shift with a 8k redline that doesn't require a car payment to drive.
AcrA6spdMT
Profile for AcrA6spdMT
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 19:32
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PGH wrote:
It's basicly a 2 door Impreza without the AWD and around 50hp more


i'm sorry, i find that very offensive :P. This car is a great triumph and a true icon. I can see people taking this car and stripping it to the barebones for competitive racing and it certainly has the goods to do so.
I want to see it succeed. Of course more competitors from other japanese companies especially from Honda would be a great thing as well.


DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 19:34
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I thought just a few months ago it was said to be less than 2,500 lb curb weight.


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 20:11
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AcrA6spdMT wrote:
PGH wrote:
It's basicly a 2 door Impreza without the AWD and around 50hp more


i'm sorry, i find that very offensive :P. This car is a great triumph and a true icon. I can see people taking this car and stripping it to the barebones for competitive racing and it certainly has the goods to do so.
I want to see it succeed. Of course more competitors from other japanese companies especially from Honda would be a great thing as well.


If you find that offensive, you probably haven't been around TOV too much. This is a tough neighborhood where you might even see a cuss word or two!
NSXforever
Profile for NSXforever
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 22:21
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BRZ is brilliant....great to see a Japanese true sports cars under 30 grand.
atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2012 22:50
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AcrA6spdMT wrote:
PGH wrote:
It's basicly a 2 door Impreza without the AWD and around 50hp more


i'm sorry, i find that very offensive :P. This car is a great triumph and a true icon. I can see people taking this car and stripping it to the barebones for competitive racing and it certainly has the goods to do so.
I want to see it succeed. Of course more competitors from other japanese companies especially from Honda would be a great thing as well.


Well, if anyone wants to know why I've got a lot less patience with people here, PGH's comments here are an example of why. He makes the differences between the Impreza and BRZ sound trivial when they aren't. Subaru has already gone on record stating that the FA and FB engines have very little in common. Everything from the body design to the suspension tuning is different.

If the vehicle was simply an Impreza that had 2 doors and some AWD components thrown out, I really doubt that it would be getting high praise for its balance and handling.
PGH
Profile for PGH
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2012 07:35
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
AcrA6spdMT wrote:
PGH wrote:
It's basicly a 2 door Impreza without the AWD and around 50hp more


i'm sorry, i find that very offensive :P. This car is a great triumph and a true icon. I can see people taking this car and stripping it to the barebones for competitive racing and it certainly has the goods to do so.
I want to see it succeed. Of course more competitors from other japanese companies especially from Honda would be a great thing as well.


Well, if anyone wants to know why I've got a lot less patience with people here, PGH's comments here are an example of why. He makes the differences between the Impreza and BRZ sound trivial when they aren't. Subaru has already gone on record stating that the FA and FB engines have very little in common. Everything from the body design to the suspension tuning is different.

If the vehicle was simply an Impreza that had 2 doors and some AWD components thrown out, I really doubt that it would be getting high praise for its balance and handling.



Do your research . The new Impreza has outsanding balance and handling. I should know I bought one. The electric PS and for the most part the suspension(of course it's upgraded) was from the Impreza. The cars are built at the same factory in Japan.
atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2012 09:19
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PGH wrote:
Do your research . The new Impreza has outsanding balance and handling. I should know I bought one. The electric PS and for the most part the suspension(of course it's upgraded) was from the Impreza. The cars are built at the same factory in Japan.


This doesn't make any sense to me. Even if the BRZ uses the same EPS as the Impreza, and a similar suspension, that doesn't mean the BRZ is an Impreza with two doors knocked off.

Straight from a Subaru press release:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/2013-subaru-brz-sports-car-makes-us-debut-at-north-american-international-auto-show-136934448.html

"The Subaru BRZ is powered by an all-new FA-Series BOXER engine that is not shared with other Subaru models.

"The Subaru BRZ is built on an entirely new platform and shares just a few parts with other Subaru models, but shares suspension architecture with the new Impreza and WRX STI."

I just don't think that a similar suspension setup and shared EPS is enough to say that the BRZ is an Impreza.
PGH
Profile for PGH
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2012 15:49
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
PGH wrote:
Do your research . The new Impreza has outsanding balance and handling. I should know I bought one. The electric PS and for the most part the suspension(of course it's upgraded) was from the Impreza. The cars are built at the same factory in Japan.


This doesn't make any sense to me. Even if the BRZ uses the same EPS as the Impreza, and a similar suspension, that doesn't mean the BRZ is an Impreza with two doors knocked off.

Straight from a Subaru press release:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/2013-subaru-brz-sports-car-makes-us-debut-at-north-american-international-auto-show-136934448.html

"The Subaru BRZ is powered by an all-new FA-Series BOXER engine that is not shared with other Subaru models.

"The Subaru BRZ is built on an entirely new platform and shares just a few parts with other Subaru models, but shares suspension architecture with the new Impreza and WRX STI."

I just don't think that a similar suspension setup and shared EPS is enough to say that the BRZ is an Impreza.




Engine wise the FB (Impreza) and FA engines are more similiar than you think. The biggest difference is the Toyota DI application.
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: BRZ tested by Edmunds    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2012 16:48
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I'd disagree with that statement. Every Impreza chassis up to an including the STI understeers badly at the limit. You can chuck it into a corner and try and get some rotation, but it still wants to push (by contrast, an Evo X will actually drift the tail out a bit).

The limits on the Impreza can be reasonably high, but balanced its not. OTOH, it still has an amazing long travel suspension that really soaks up crappy roads, so its got that going for it (I think the WRX has the best balance between ride/handling of the family - it really tolerates almost any road surface well).

SC

PGH wrote:

Do your research . The new Impreza has outsanding balance and handling. I should know I bought one. The electric PS and for the most part the suspension(of course it's upgraded) was from the Impreza. The cars are built at the same factory in Japan.


 
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