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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?

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Pjlk-
Profile for Pjlk-
If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 10:04
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From web-based USA Today, 02/17/2012.
If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not a mid-sized Acura?
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/02/ford-boasts-hybrid-tech-now-leapfrogs-toyota/1

This is an example of what I've been talking about. It just seems to me that the core values that once made Honda/Acura green favorites, have, over the years been embraced more by its rivals!...
("I know. I know. Just wait three years.")
I'm just saying.
:)
pjlk
6SPDTL
Profile for 6SPDTL
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 10:32
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Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.
P54
Profile for P54
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 10:36
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Key word: Ford BOASTS!

Like they have always done. Focus should be soooo good and in Europe it is a test winner, however it is the most disliked vehicle by its owners.

I'm just saying.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 10:43
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P54 wrote:
Key word: Ford BOASTS!

Like they have always done. Focus should be soooo good and in Europe it is a test winner, however it is the most disliked vehicle by its owners.

I'm just saying.





Most disliked! Do you perchance have a link for that, please?
typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 10:54
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The new Honda Hybrid system will be debuted in the next gen Accord and is supposed to surpass Toyota in efficiency based on comments from ED press materials. If it does, it should be competitive at the very least with the Fusion.

Also note, the Sonata/Optima Hybrid hype that has fizzled quite a bit. Those cars are not living up to the performance or MPG mileage expectations. Ford could suffer similar fate, so don't judge by a press release....no one's even driven one yet.
Pjlk-
Profile for Pjlk-
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 10:56
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6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. As other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to do) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.


In all sincerity... As an engineer, it becomes obvious when you have not been given the resources and support you need to be successful. Your comments about Honda's jet business may actually be shedding light on a contributing factor to such a lack of support.
I'd like to re-phrase a comment I've been making in other posts... "Honda/Acura is either milking Acura, not properly supporting it's fine engineers or needs a major management change!". There's no reason for these guys to be fielding mediocre green products and losing their lead and reputatiion.
I'm just saying...
pjlk

P54
Profile for P54
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 12:50
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Nick Graves wrote:
P54 wrote:
Key word: Ford BOASTS!

Like they have always done. Focus should be soooo good and in Europe it is a test winner, however it is the most disliked vehicle by its owners.

I'm just saying.





Most disliked! Do you perchance have a link for that, please?



Long time since I read the article so did not find the article I looked for, however I found another that shows the cars rated in each class. BTW, the Honda Jazz/Fit rated #1 in its class, despite the fact that Honda as a car manufacturer has a very negative media portrayal in Norway.

Kompaktbilene (compacts)
1...... VW Golf/Golf Plus.....851....Seks..(6)
2...... Skoda Octavia.........841....Fem..(5)
3...... Honda Civic.............830....Fem
4...... Toyota Auris...........828.....Fem
5...... Saab 9.3................823.....Fire...(4)
6...... Mazda 3.................817.....Fire
7...... Peugeot 308...........816.....Fire
8...... Toyota Corolla........812.....Fire
9...... Renault Mégane.......809....Tre.....(3)
10.....Hyundai i30............808.....Tre
11.....Seat Leon..............804.....Tre
12.....Citroën C4..............801....Tre
13.....Opel Astra.............796.....Tre
14.....Ford Focus..........794.....Tre
15.....Mitsubishi Lancer....792.....Tre
16.....Seat Ibiza.............786.....Tre
17.....Suzuki Liana..........760.....To...(2)
18.....Peugeot 307/ 308...754.....To

http://www.vg.no/bil-og-motor/artikkel.php?artid=10087210

You can also go this this LINK and scroll to the pictures of Ford Focus and also Ford C Max and look in the right corner where it shows the "minus" symbol. It reads "Lite fornøyde eiere", which means "dissatisfied owners".

The original article where I read it first time I did not find back to, maybe if I spend more time looking.






Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 14:20
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6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.

Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."

Obviously Honda and Toyota went down different paths for their Hybrid tech. Toyota choosing the 'big' battery approach that allows for electric only operation, and Honda going with a smaller, lighter system that was compatible with a manual transmission.

Weren't the original hybrids introduced around 1999-2000? After one generation of cars (5 year product cycle) it was apparent whose philosophy had won public perception as well as the EPA mpg battles.

As you noted, IF Honda realized in 2005 that the battle was lost, how long does it take to engineer a new system that does not infringe on Toyota's (claimed) 2000 patents on Synergy Drive? We know they would NEVER license HSD as Renault did for Nissan so they probably made a decision to continue with IMA till the replacement was ready. Obviously that will show up this year in the Accord.

So I think this answers the OPs question. Honda can do it, and they're going to bring something to market now. I wonder if we'll even see two new hybrid introductions in the Accord and RL (if that shows this year as discussed).
P54
Profile for P54
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 14:53
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And is Honda lightweight simplified hybrid that bad when it comes to FE?


Toyota Prius,,,,,,,,,,,,..........EPA:48.......CR:55mpg
Honda Civic Hybrid..............EPA:44.......CR:50mpg
Honda Insight EX................EPA:44.......CR:45mpg
Mazda3 i Touring (Skyactiv).EPA:40.......CR:43mpg
Hyundai Sonata Hybrid........EPA:40 .......CR:40mpg

What can we expect from the new advanced IMA and the new two motor system?
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 14:55
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P54 wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
P54 wrote:
Key word: Ford BOASTS!

Like they have always done. Focus should be soooo good and in Europe it is a test winner, however it is the most disliked vehicle by its owners.

I'm just saying.





Most disliked! Do you perchance have a link for that, please?



Long time since I read the article so did not find the article I looked for, however I found another that shows the cars rated in each class. BTW, the Honda Jazz/Fit rated #1 in its class, despite the fact that Honda as a car manufacturer has a very negative media portrayal in Norway.

Kompaktbilene (compacts)
1...... VW Golf/Golf Plus.....851....Seks..(6)
2...... Skoda Octavia.........841....Fem..(5)
3...... Honda Civic.............830....Fem
4...... Toyota Auris...........828.....Fem
5...... Saab 9.3................823.....Fire...(4)
6...... Mazda 3.................817.....Fire
7...... Peugeot 308...........816.....Fire
8...... Toyota Corolla........812.....Fire
9...... Renault Mégane.......809....Tre.....(3)
10.....Hyundai i30............808.....Tre
11.....Seat Leon..............804.....Tre
12.....Citroën C4..............801....Tre
13.....Opel Astra.............796.....Tre
14.....Ford Focus..........794.....Tre
15.....Mitsubishi Lancer....792.....Tre
16.....Seat Ibiza.............786.....Tre
17.....Suzuki Liana..........760.....To...(2)
18.....Peugeot 307/ 308...754.....To

http://www.vg.no/bil-og-motor/artikkel.php?artid=10087210

You can also go this this LINK and scroll to the pictures of Ford Focus and also Ford C Max and look in the right corner where it shows the "minus" symbol. It reads "Lite fornøyde eiere", which means "dissatisfied owners".

The original article where I read it first time I did not find back to, maybe if I spend more time looking.









Tak for at!

Interesting viewpoints. The difference in ratings between a Peugeot 308 & 3008 is quite striking. Maybe it's the Mitsubishi influence that's improved the latter.

BTW - "Smugtitt" is a great word in English - sounds like an Audi driver!

P54
Profile for P54
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 15:56
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Norwegian is hard to translate to English, like "I miss you", an American lady wrote in a letter to a Norwegian "I miss you", however looked it up in a dictionary and wrote "jeg frøken deg" which does not make any sense as frøken in Norwegian is the English Miss as in Ms, ie young lady. The word miss in Norwegian could mean "savne" (as in I miss you), "bomme" (as in miss the mark/target) and "frøken" (as in Miss Graves).

I guess you looked up your Norwegian words, good try, however I'll give you some correction.

"Tak for at" should be "Takk for det" unless you meant to write "Takk for alt" and lost the k and l?

Appreciate your efforts. Language can be fun. In English you ask for "beer", in Norway you ask for "øl" while in Germany if you ask for "øl" you get engine oil. English "shark" is "hai" in Norwegian (pronounced hi), however in Japan hai means "yes".

Schøn is German, and a similar word in Norwegian is sjøen (pronounced sjøn, like the German schøn). Now the Norwegian word means ocean while the German use the word in saying thank you.

Danke schøn (thank you), upon which you reply Bitte schøn (you are welcome) upon which you in Norwegian can reply "hopp i sjøen", meaning jump in the ocean.

German "Was sagen Sie" (What do you say) gets the response in Norwegian "Jeg sager ved" (Ich sage holz) meaning I'm cutting wood as sagen in German means "say" but in Norwegian could also be sawing.(cutting).

What does "smugtitt" and an Audi driver have in common?
Pjlk-
Profile for Pjlk-
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 16:27
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Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."


It isn't always that straight forward. Sometimes management wants to have their cake and eat it as well. I've seen efforts underfunded, just because no one in a decision making position had the courage to make the hard choice to kill a pet project. Hense sufficient funds that would have gone to (say hybrid development) are diverted to pet projects (say jet development). It's a way of covering your butt. "Hey, we funded hybrids, private jet development didn't hurt our effort."
We're likely to not know what happened, but it could be reasonably argued that there was a lack of focus on their core business. Whether that argument is correct is unlikely to be settled.
pjlk



Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2012 17:00
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Pjlk- wrote:
It isn't always that straight forward. Sometimes management wants to have their cake and eat it as well. I've seen efforts underfunded, just because no one in a decision making position had the courage to make the hard choice to kill a pet project. Hense sufficient funds that would have gone to (say hybrid development) are diverted to pet projects (say jet development). It's a way of covering your butt. "Hey, we funded hybrids, private jet development didn't hurt our effort."
We're likely to not know what happened, but it could be reasonably argued that there was a lack of focus on their core business. Whether that argument is correct is unlikely to be settled.
pjlk


More likely, it was development of the fuel cell vs. Honda Jet. They had a lot of work done on that project because the previous administration was headed in that direction. Obama pulled the plug and has incentiveized full electrics instead.

I agree we'll never know exactly, but I'd guess there is some 'siloing' of large projects like Honda Jet and F1.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2012 01:56
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Pjlk- wrote:
Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."


It isn't always that straight forward. Sometimes management wants to have their cake and eat it as well. I've seen efforts underfunded, just because no one in a decision making position had the courage to make the hard choice to kill a pet project. Hense sufficient funds that would have gone to (say hybrid development) are diverted to pet projects (say jet development). It's a way of covering your butt. "Hey, we funded hybrids, private jet development didn't hurt our effort."
We're likely to not know what happened, but it could be reasonably argued that there was a lack of focus on their core business. Whether that argument is correct is unlikely to be settled.
pjlk






I am not completely sure why the Hondajet is the De Facto scapegoat for the car programs, when people aren't happy.

First, Honda STARTED the jet research back in the early to mid 90's when they were a much smaller company, and it didn't seem to detract from their vehicular product then. Second, Honda has a lot of competition for R&D dollars besides just jets. They have robotics, alternative energy endeavors, powertools, watercraft, marine engines, motorcycles/ATV's, and many other projects that all compete for the same money.

Second, while not a huge IMA fan, I think Honda's timeline is pretty clear. 2000-2005 they had IMA, which was clearly a unique system. Honda's original mandate was to develop a hybrid system that wouldn't be "weird" like Toyota's system. Honda wanted to make cars that drove like cars, and thus IMA was a more logical choice for the mission. But the public had a different perception, and by 2005 which is when the Prius really started to catch on, Toyota had everything patented. As a simple matter of Honda pride, there was NO WAY they were going to license Toyota's hybrid tech, and in order to build an equivalent/better system without infringing on Toyota's patent rights probably took some time. Keep in mind that 2004-2005 was also the timeframe that Honda was majorly pissed off about Toyota claiming their Champ Car victories and was the time Honda ran Toyota from CART and then chased them to IRL to embarass them into oblivion. As a simple matter of conviction, Honda had to go a different way.

Now we are here about 6 years down the road, and Honda has a newer, better hyrbid system ready to go. Hopefully, it will provide HSD MPG without the weirdness in driving style.
Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-21-2012 01:11
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owequitit wrote:
Pjlk- wrote:
Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."


It isn't always that straight forward. Sometimes management wants to have their cake and eat it as well. I've seen efforts underfunded, just because no one in a decision making position had the courage to make the hard choice to kill a pet project. Hense sufficient funds that would have gone to (say hybrid development) are diverted to pet projects (say jet development). It's a way of covering your butt. "Hey, we funded hybrids, private jet development didn't hurt our effort."
We're likely to not know what happened, but it could be reasonably argued that there was a lack of focus on their core business. Whether that argument is correct is unlikely to be settled.
pjlk



But the public had a different perception, and by 2005 which is when the Prius really started to catch on, Toyota had everything patented. As a simple matter of Honda pride, there was NO WAY they were going to license Toyota's hybrid tech, and in order to build an equivalent/better system without infringing on Toyota's patent rights probably took some time.

Now we are here about 6 years down the road, and Honda has a newer, better hyrbid system ready to go. Hopefully, it will provide HSD MPG without the weirdness in driving style.


And hopefully clear of any patent hurdles. I wanted to clarify something. Technically Toyota 'stole' Hybrid Synergy Drive from Paice and have settled a lawsuit in which the details are unknown. However, whether the patents are held by Toyota or Paice, they're intellectual property of somebody and it seems that Honda was keen NOT in infringe on these. As noted, Ford and Renault took the 'easy' way out and licensed from Toyota/Paice.

Looks like the Korean 'press darlings' have run afoul of this property.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-17/hyundai-kia-sued-by-toyota-foe-in-fight-over-hybrids.html
Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-21-2012 09:36
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This is fun.

Just a few weeks ago a tread about how hybrid is not worth the investment, now because Fords cars also have a big mouth, people think Honda invested in the wrong R&D projects.

Its not like Management saying... oh team just drop your work on the hybrid drive train and work on a carbon fibre jet plane, we would like to spend a few bucks on a jet now.

These people are freaking experts, just because you have money doesnt mean anything short or midterm!
Some R&D teams even work on different sides of the car on the damm suspension and you cant really swap these guys easily.

Has nobody noticed all the partnering of major Manufacturers with carbon fibre pros? Like BMW for the new e-cars maybe.
But wait Honda builds up enough knowhow to build a whole jet - purely miles ahead.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-21-2012 11:56
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I just posted a thread in Today's Reading Links about Honda's state in EU, which explains their rather independent-minded R&D rationale rather nicely.

I'm minded of how much failure goes before success, to paraphrase the words of Honda-san.



Power Of Dreams
Profile for Power Of Dreams
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-21-2012 13:04
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Fan Koni wrote:
This is fun.

Just a few weeks ago a tread about how hybrid is not worth the investment, now because Fords cars also have a big mouth, people think Honda invested in the wrong R&D projects.

Its not like Management saying... oh team just drop your work on the hybrid drive train and work on a carbon fibre jet plane, we would like to spend a few bucks on a jet now.

These people are freaking experts, just because you have money doesnt mean anything short or midterm!
Some R&D teams even work on different sides of the car on the damm suspension and you cant really swap these guys easily.

Has nobody noticed all the partnering of major Manufacturers with carbon fibre pros? Like BMW for the new e-cars maybe.
But wait Honda builds up enough knowhow to build a whole jet - purely miles ahead.





If building airplanes is the same as building great cars, then Saab should have been the world's best automaker.
Power Of Dreams
Profile for Power Of Dreams
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-21-2012 13:07
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Fan Koni wrote:
This is fun.

Just a few weeks ago a tread about how hybrid is not worth the investment, now because Fords cars also have a big mouth, people think Honda invested in the wrong R&D projects.

Its not like Management saying... oh team just drop your work on the hybrid drive train and work on a carbon fibre jet plane, we would like to spend a few bucks on a jet now.

These people are freaking experts, just because you have money doesnt mean anything short or midterm!
Some R&D teams even work on different sides of the car on the damm suspension and you cant really swap these guys easily.

Has nobody noticed all the partnering of major Manufacturers with carbon fibre pros? Like BMW for the new e-cars maybe.
But wait Honda builds up enough knowhow to build a whole jet - purely miles ahead.





The proof is in the execution. There's only so many excuses one can make for a product like this that came from the minds of "freaking experts"

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-21-2012 14:09
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Power Of Dreams wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
This is fun.

Just a few weeks ago a tread about how hybrid is not worth the investment, now because Fords cars also have a big mouth, people think Honda invested in the wrong R&D projects.

Its not like Management saying... oh team just drop your work on the hybrid drive train and work on a carbon fibre jet plane, we would like to spend a few bucks on a jet now.

These people are freaking experts, just because you have money doesnt mean anything short or midterm!
Some R&D teams even work on different sides of the car on the damm suspension and you cant really swap these guys easily.

Has nobody noticed all the partnering of major Manufacturers with carbon fibre pros? Like BMW for the new e-cars maybe.
But wait Honda builds up enough knowhow to build a whole jet - purely miles ahead.





If building airplanes is the same as building great cars, then Saab should have been the world's best automaker.



By that logic, Mazdas would have cork interiors.

If you put peppercorns in the oil filler of a Peugeot, you get freshly ground pepper out of the bottom.

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-23-2012 09:42
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Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.

Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."

Obviously Honda and Toyota went down different paths for their Hybrid tech. Toyota choosing the 'big' battery approach that allows for electric only operation, and Honda going with a smaller, lighter system that was compatible with a manual transmission.

Weren't the original hybrids introduced around 1999-2000? After one generation of cars (5 year product cycle) it was apparent whose philosophy had won public perception as well as the EPA mpg battles.

As you noted, IF Honda realized in 2005 that the battle was lost, how long does it take to engineer a new system that does not infringe on Toyota's (claimed) 2000 patents on Synergy Drive? We know they would NEVER license HSD as Renault did for Nissan so they probably made a decision to continue with IMA till the replacement was ready. Obviously that will show up this year in the Accord.

So I think this answers the OPs question. Honda can do it, and they're going to bring something to market now. I wonder if we'll even see two new hybrid introductions in the Accord and RL (if that shows this year as discussed).


Honda will have 2 hybrid systems if my understanding is right.....the NSX type and the Accord........The Accord will be more of a "VOLT" system where there is no direct drive to the wheels from the engine/trans, Ah La FCX..........if you want to use the closest Honda car.....

As far as who started this post.........Honda is with in a hair of the 2016 CAFE standards, FORD has a rush hour NY city mile to go.........so they have time and no rush to get there and Colin's post was GENIUS!
Pjlk-
Profile for Pjlk-
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-24-2012 14:22
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.

Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."

Obviously Honda and Toyota went down different paths for their Hybrid tech. Toyota choosing the 'big' battery approach that allows for electric only operation, and Honda going with a smaller, lighter system that was compatible with a manual transmission.

Weren't the original hybrids introduced around 1999-2000? After one generation of cars (5 year product cycle) it was apparent whose philosophy had won public perception as well as the EPA mpg battles.

As you noted, IF Honda realized in 2005 that the battle was lost, how long does it take to engineer a new system that does not infringe on Toyota's (claimed) 2000 patents on Synergy Drive? We know they would NEVER license HSD as Renault did for Nissan so they probably made a decision to continue with IMA till the replacement was ready. Obviously that will show up this year in the Accord.

So I think this answers the OPs question. Honda can do it, and they're going to bring something to market now. I wonder if we'll even see two new hybrid introductions in the Accord and RL (if that shows this year as discussed).


Honda will have 2 hybrid systems if my understanding is right.....the NSX type and the Accord........The Accord will be more of a "VOLT" system where there is no direct drive to the wheels from the engine/trans, Ah La FCX..........if you want to use the closest Honda car.....

As far as who started this post.........Honda is with in a hair of the 2016 CAFE standards, FORD has a rush hour NY city mile to go.........so they have time and no rush to get there and Colin's post was GENIUS!


We really should base this discussion on the present, not futures; which are too easy to inflate!!
pjlk
Pjlk-
Profile for Pjlk-
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-24-2012 14:24
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.

Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."

Obviously Honda and Toyota went down different paths for their Hybrid tech. Toyota choosing the 'big' battery approach that allows for electric only operation, and Honda going with a smaller, lighter system that was compatible with a manual transmission.

Weren't the original hybrids introduced around 1999-2000? After one generation of cars (5 year product cycle) it was apparent whose philosophy had won public perception as well as the EPA mpg battles.

As you noted, IF Honda realized in 2005 that the battle was lost, how long does it take to engineer a new system that does not infringe on Toyota's (claimed) 2000 patents on Synergy Drive? We know they would NEVER license HSD as Renault did for Nissan so they probably made a decision to continue with IMA till the replacement was ready. Obviously that will show up this year in the Accord.

So I think this answers the OPs question. Honda can do it, and they're going to bring something to market now. I wonder if we'll even see two new hybrid introductions in the Accord and RL (if that shows this year as discussed).


Honda will have 2 hybrid systems if my understanding is right.....the NSX type and the Accord........The Accord will be more of a "VOLT" system where there is no direct drive to the wheels from the engine/trans, Ah La FCX..........if you want to use the closest Honda car.....

As far as who started this post.........Honda is with in a hair of the 2016 CAFE standards, FORD has a rush hour NY city mile to go.........so they have time and no rush to get there and Colin's post was GENIUS!


We really should base this discussion on the present, not futures; which are too easy to inflate!! Did I miss your point?
pjlk
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-24-2012 15:04
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.

Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."

Obviously Honda and Toyota went down different paths for their Hybrid tech. Toyota choosing the 'big' battery approach that allows for electric only operation, and Honda going with a smaller, lighter system that was compatible with a manual transmission.

Weren't the original hybrids introduced around 1999-2000? After one generation of cars (5 year product cycle) it was apparent whose philosophy had won public perception as well as the EPA mpg battles.

As you noted, IF Honda realized in 2005 that the battle was lost, how long does it take to engineer a new system that does not infringe on Toyota's (claimed) 2000 patents on Synergy Drive? We know they would NEVER license HSD as Renault did for Nissan so they probably made a decision to continue with IMA till the replacement was ready. Obviously that will show up this year in the Accord.

So I think this answers the OPs question. Honda can do it, and they're going to bring something to market now. I wonder if we'll even see two new hybrid introductions in the Accord and RL (if that shows this year as discussed).


Honda will have 2 hybrid systems if my understanding is right.....the NSX type and the Accord........The Accord will be more of a "VOLT" system where there is no direct drive to the wheels from the engine/trans, Ah La FCX..........if you want to use the closest Honda car.....

As far as who started this post.........Honda is with in a hair of the 2016 CAFE standards, FORD has a rush hour NY city mile to go.........so they have time and no rush to get there and Colin's post was GENIUS!



I'll have to put you straight there, Andrew!

The Accord's system (whether Plug-in or normal) does in fact have a direct (clutched) drive to the wheels, engaged at higher speeds, which can be boosted be e-drive. The idea is, it won't feel all weirdy & CVT-like as do the rival systems:

¡Three driving modes allowing for top-of-industry efficiency*1 for various driving environments were developed; an "EV driving mode" for urban environments, a "hybrid driving mode" using electricity generated by the motor, and a "engine-connected driving mode" where the engine and tires are mechanically connected during high-speed cruising
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-24-2012 16:20
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Nick Graves wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.

Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."

Obviously Honda and Toyota went down different paths for their Hybrid tech. Toyota choosing the 'big' battery approach that allows for electric only operation, and Honda going with a smaller, lighter system that was compatible with a manual transmission.

Weren't the original hybrids introduced around 1999-2000? After one generation of cars (5 year product cycle) it was apparent whose philosophy had won public perception as well as the EPA mpg battles.

As you noted, IF Honda realized in 2005 that the battle was lost, how long does it take to engineer a new system that does not infringe on Toyota's (claimed) 2000 patents on Synergy Drive? We know they would NEVER license HSD as Renault did for Nissan so they probably made a decision to continue with IMA till the replacement was ready. Obviously that will show up this year in the Accord.

So I think this answers the OPs question. Honda can do it, and they're going to bring something to market now. I wonder if we'll even see two new hybrid introductions in the Accord and RL (if that shows this year as discussed).


Honda will have 2 hybrid systems if my understanding is right.....the NSX type and the Accord........The Accord will be more of a "VOLT" system where there is no direct drive to the wheels from the engine/trans, Ah La FCX..........if you want to use the closest Honda car.....

As far as who started this post.........Honda is with in a hair of the 2016 CAFE standards, FORD has a rush hour NY city mile to go.........so they have time and no rush to get there and Colin's post was GENIUS!



I'll have to put you straight there, Andrew!

The Accord's system (whether Plug-in or normal) does in fact have a direct (clutched) drive to the wheels, engaged at higher speeds, which can be boosted be e-drive. The idea is, it won't feel all weirdy & CVT-like as do the rival systems:

¡Three driving modes allowing for top-of-industry efficiency*1 for various driving environments were developed; an "EV driving mode" for urban environments, a "hybrid driving mode" using electricity generated by the motor, and a "engine-connected driving mode" where the engine and tires are mechanically connected during high-speed cruising


Nick, In Electric and "Hybrid" mode there will be no connection to the engine. I should have been more clear, as I was comparing it to the IMA of current, which is connected........in all modes......

But, my understanding about this CVT in the hybrid is that it has some sort of electric mode in on it's self or is electric too.....I am not sure on that whole bucket of bands, pulleys and bolts...........Any light on that subject?

I know the NSX is going to be a pixie dust island of fantasy and magic.........that transmission is going to be incredible, 7 speed, electric.........WTF.........I can't wait to see this thing...........I think I am going to make weekly trips to the factory once it's built and camp out......drag the kids out on Sundays, it's only 140 miles from my house.........
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-25-2012 01:03
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Nick Graves wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.

Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."

Obviously Honda and Toyota went down different paths for their Hybrid tech. Toyota choosing the 'big' battery approach that allows for electric only operation, and Honda going with a smaller, lighter system that was compatible with a manual transmission.

Weren't the original hybrids introduced around 1999-2000? After one generation of cars (5 year product cycle) it was apparent whose philosophy had won public perception as well as the EPA mpg battles.

As you noted, IF Honda realized in 2005 that the battle was lost, how long does it take to engineer a new system that does not infringe on Toyota's (claimed) 2000 patents on Synergy Drive? We know they would NEVER license HSD as Renault did for Nissan so they probably made a decision to continue with IMA till the replacement was ready. Obviously that will show up this year in the Accord.

So I think this answers the OPs question. Honda can do it, and they're going to bring something to market now. I wonder if we'll even see two new hybrid introductions in the Accord and RL (if that shows this year as discussed).


Honda will have 2 hybrid systems if my understanding is right.....the NSX type and the Accord........The Accord will be more of a "VOLT" system where there is no direct drive to the wheels from the engine/trans, Ah La FCX..........if you want to use the closest Honda car.....

As far as who started this post.........Honda is with in a hair of the 2016 CAFE standards, FORD has a rush hour NY city mile to go.........so they have time and no rush to get there and Colin's post was GENIUS!



I'll have to put you straight there, Andrew!

The Accord's system (whether Plug-in or normal) does in fact have a direct (clutched) drive to the wheels, engaged at higher speeds, which can be boosted be e-drive. The idea is, it won't feel all weirdy & CVT-like as do the rival systems:

¡Three driving modes allowing for top-of-industry efficiency*1 for various driving environments were developed; an "EV driving mode" for urban environments, a "hybrid driving mode" using electricity generated by the motor, and a "engine-connected driving mode" where the engine and tires are mechanically connected during high-speed cruising



Nick, I will one-up you too. In actuality, there isn't really a "transmission", not in the same sense as Hybrid synergy drive's CVT. The engine becomes direct drive to the wheels, but from what I'm understanding at the moment, the "CVT" function is really just variable torque boost from the electric motor. There isn't really a transmission per se. I anticipate pretty minimal drivetrain losses in this case.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Honda's hybrid approach is outdated, or at least better relegated to simpler vehicles. But their new hybrid concepts will at least put them up to par I think.

Ford's approach is generally more conventional. The main difference is the lack of belt-drive accessories on the engine itself (electric everything, in other words). I'll be honest, at least looking at what they've done (so far, obviously having personally not been able to benchmark one yet), I'm not sure if it will be that much better than Toyota's hybrid drive system. The new Camry hybrid is a pretty masterful strike, offering both good performance and good fuel economy...

Considering this is just a hype article with no substantive data, tech specs or the like, I'm surprised that Pjlk would jump on the bandwagon... being an engineer himself...
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-25-2012 13:32
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.

Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."

Obviously Honda and Toyota went down different paths for their Hybrid tech. Toyota choosing the 'big' battery approach that allows for electric only operation, and Honda going with a smaller, lighter system that was compatible with a manual transmission.

Weren't the original hybrids introduced around 1999-2000? After one generation of cars (5 year product cycle) it was apparent whose philosophy had won public perception as well as the EPA mpg battles.

As you noted, IF Honda realized in 2005 that the battle was lost, how long does it take to engineer a new system that does not infringe on Toyota's (claimed) 2000 patents on Synergy Drive? We know they would NEVER license HSD as Renault did for Nissan so they probably made a decision to continue with IMA till the replacement was ready. Obviously that will show up this year in the Accord.

So I think this answers the OPs question. Honda can do it, and they're going to bring something to market now. I wonder if we'll even see two new hybrid introductions in the Accord and RL (if that shows this year as discussed).


Honda will have 2 hybrid systems if my understanding is right.....the NSX type and the Accord........The Accord will be more of a "VOLT" system where there is no direct drive to the wheels from the engine/trans, Ah La FCX..........if you want to use the closest Honda car.....

As far as who started this post.........Honda is with in a hair of the 2016 CAFE standards, FORD has a rush hour NY city mile to go.........so they have time and no rush to get there and Colin's post was GENIUS!



I'll have to put you straight there, Andrew!

The Accord's system (whether Plug-in or normal) does in fact have a direct (clutched) drive to the wheels, engaged at higher speeds, which can be boosted be e-drive. The idea is, it won't feel all weirdy & CVT-like as do the rival systems:

¡Three driving modes allowing for top-of-industry efficiency*1 for various driving environments were developed; an "EV driving mode" for urban environments, a "hybrid driving mode" using electricity generated by the motor, and a "engine-connected driving mode" where the engine and tires are mechanically connected during high-speed cruising



Nick, I will one-up you too. In actuality, there isn't really a "transmission", not in the same sense as Hybrid synergy drive's CVT. The engine becomes direct drive to the wheels, but from what I'm understanding at the moment, the "CVT" function is really just variable torque boost from the electric motor. There isn't really a transmission per se. I anticipate pretty minimal drivetrain losses in this case.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Honda's hybrid approach is outdated, or at least better relegated to simpler vehicles. But their new hybrid concepts will at least put them up to par I think.

Ford's approach is generally more conventional. The main difference is the lack of belt-drive accessories on the engine itself (electric everything, in other words). I'll be honest, at least looking at what they've done (so far, obviously having personally not been able to benchmark one yet), I'm not sure if it will be that much better than Toyota's hybrid drive system. The new Camry hybrid is a pretty masterful strike, offering both good performance and good fuel economy...

Considering this is just a hype article with no substantive data, tech specs or the like, I'm surprised that Pjlk would jump on the bandwagon... being an engineer himself...



There isn't actually a CVT per se in the Toyota system; they pair one of the electric motors with the engine as a generator, the booster motor acts on a differential gearset to give a "CVT" function - the motors can either power the car or re-charge the battery according to load.

The Honda system is more like a conventional "Diesel-Electric drive" from a locomotive in EV mode when not in lock up. Only with battery boost or power as an option.

One might say it's simpler to overcome patent rights, or simpler because it feels better like that. Time will tell...

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-25-2012 17:41
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Toyota's CVT system is actually a planetary gearset that varies torque between generation and wheel drive through the carrier and outer ring gears (IIRC, the torque spread is between 70%-30% direct drive/electric generation. I have to admit that I could never really wrap my head around planetary gearsets for some reason.
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-25-2012 17:47
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Nick Graves wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Colin wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
Honda refused to buy-in into toyota's synergy drive (everyone else did). Not unusual since Honda likes to do its "own thing". Unfortunately when it comes to hybrids its "own thing" is mediocre. AS other brands become more reliable, Honda has to step up its development (as it used to) to stay relevant, Jets are nice, but not if they delay new car tech.

Do you really think they've delayed car (specifically hybrid) tech for jets? Because I don't. Specifically, I'm saying that there was not a executive decision to forgo car development for jet development. "no, lets not work on that cause we need to focus on Honda Jet."

Obviously Honda and Toyota went down different paths for their Hybrid tech. Toyota choosing the 'big' battery approach that allows for electric only operation, and Honda going with a smaller, lighter system that was compatible with a manual transmission.

Weren't the original hybrids introduced around 1999-2000? After one generation of cars (5 year product cycle) it was apparent whose philosophy had won public perception as well as the EPA mpg battles.

As you noted, IF Honda realized in 2005 that the battle was lost, how long does it take to engineer a new system that does not infringe on Toyota's (claimed) 2000 patents on Synergy Drive? We know they would NEVER license HSD as Renault did for Nissan so they probably made a decision to continue with IMA till the replacement was ready. Obviously that will show up this year in the Accord.

So I think this answers the OPs question. Honda can do it, and they're going to bring something to market now. I wonder if we'll even see two new hybrid introductions in the Accord and RL (if that shows this year as discussed).


Honda will have 2 hybrid systems if my understanding is right.....the NSX type and the Accord........The Accord will be more of a "VOLT" system where there is no direct drive to the wheels from the engine/trans, Ah La FCX..........if you want to use the closest Honda car.....

As far as who started this post.........Honda is with in a hair of the 2016 CAFE standards, FORD has a rush hour NY city mile to go.........so they have time and no rush to get there and Colin's post was GENIUS!



I'll have to put you straight there, Andrew!

The Accord's system (whether Plug-in or normal) does in fact have a direct (clutched) drive to the wheels, engaged at higher speeds, which can be boosted be e-drive. The idea is, it won't feel all weirdy & CVT-like as do the rival systems:

¡Three driving modes allowing for top-of-industry efficiency*1 for various driving environments were developed; an "EV driving mode" for urban environments, a "hybrid driving mode" using electricity generated by the motor, and a "engine-connected driving mode" where the engine and tires are mechanically connected during high-speed cruising



Nick, I will one-up you too. In actuality, there isn't really a "transmission", not in the same sense as Hybrid synergy drive's CVT. The engine becomes direct drive to the wheels, but from what I'm understanding at the moment, the "CVT" function is really just variable torque boost from the electric motor. There isn't really a transmission per se. I anticipate pretty minimal drivetrain losses in this case.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Honda's hybrid approach is outdated, or at least better relegated to simpler vehicles. But their new hybrid concepts will at least put them up to par I think.

Ford's approach is generally more conventional. The main difference is the lack of belt-drive accessories on the engine itself (electric everything, in other words). I'll be honest, at least looking at what they've done (so far, obviously having personally not been able to benchmark one yet), I'm not sure if it will be that much better than Toyota's hybrid drive system. The new Camry hybrid is a pretty masterful strike, offering both good performance and good fuel economy...

Considering this is just a hype article with no substantive data, tech specs or the like, I'm surprised that Pjlk would jump on the bandwagon... being an engineer himself...



There isn't actually a CVT per se in the Toyota system; they pair one of the electric motors with the engine as a generator, the booster motor acts on a differential gearset to give a "CVT" function - the motors can either power the car or re-charge the battery according to load.

The Honda system is more like a conventional "Diesel-Electric drive" from a locomotive in EV mode when not in lock up. Only with battery boost or power as an option.

One might say it's simpler to overcome patent rights, or simpler because it feels better like that. Time will tell...



My understanding is it is closer to a "VOLT" system then a Toyota system. Closer to how CarPhreakD laid it out.......until we get a real explanation from Honda when it comes out, it's all speculation.........I do know that it is supposed to be very smooth and feel more connected then a Toyota product........
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: If a Ford Fusion can do it, why not Acura?    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-25-2012 17:52
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Toyota's CVT system is actually a planetary gearset that varies torque between generation and wheel drive through the carrier and outer ring gears (IIRC, the torque spread is between 70%-30% direct drive/electric generation. I have to admit that I could never really wrap my head around planetary gearsets for some reason.

It's a VERY complicated system and when the engine kicks on over the EV mode, it is a big jolt! I was driving a Prius "V" today with a customer and he was like, "Nothing is happening when I press the gas, it feels so disconnected," I explained to him prior the test drive that is was going to feel as if there is some resistance or like he is just driving a Lap Top.........after he got used to it, it was acceptable, but he didn't think his wife would like it........

My understanding is the Honda system is not going to be that fuzzy..........
 
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