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  TOV News > Acura Debuts 2013 RDX and All-New ILX Sedan at Chicago Auto Show > > Re: Meanwhile over at BMW...

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cgx
Profile for cgx
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-27-2012 08:41
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dootndo2 wrote:
I don't understand why the name BMW is on this site at all.
The reasons are two-fold:
1. The essence of BMW appeals to many present/former Acura/Honda owners.
2. BMW has a winner with the N20, balancing performance and efficiency.

As present N55 (turbo)/former N52 (NA inline 6), owner, the appeal of the N20 is simple:

Factory rated at 240hp w/255lb-ft of torque.
Real-world dyno 265-272hp w/270-277lb-ft tq at the crank.
For the adventurous who are unconcerned with MPG and choose to purchase the 328 for its lighter weight, the first N20 tune achieves 294 hp w/310 lb-ft tq.

Yes, it's true a base 328 begins at 35K, options can drive the cost to truly stupid price points, and the overall cost of ownership will never be cheap after the included maintenance runs out. It's also true the N20 will never sound like the outgoing N52 no matter where the needle is pointing on the tach.

But on point, drop the N20 in a next gen 1 series starting at 31K, combine that with even greater MPG, and tell me where is the value in buying a re-badged Civic?



Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-27-2012 09:20
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cgx wrote:
dootndo2 wrote:
I don't understand why the name BMW is on this site at all.
The reasons are two-fold:
1. The essence of BMW appeals to many present/former Acura/Honda owners.
2. BMW has a winner with the N20, balancing performance and efficiency.

As present N55 (turbo)/former N52 (NA inline 6), owner, the appeal of the N20 is simple:

Factory rated at 240hp w/255lb-ft of torque.
Real-world dyno 265-272hp w/270-277lb-ft tq at the crank.
For the adventurous who are unconcerned with MPG and choose to purchase the 328 for its lighter weight, the first N20 tune achieves 294 hp w/310 lb-ft tq.

Yes, it's true a base 328 begins at 35K, options can drive the cost to truly stupid price points, and the overall cost of ownership will never be cheap after the included maintenance runs out. It's also true the N20 will never sound like the outgoing N52 no matter where the needle is pointing on the tach.

But on point, drop the N20 in a next gen 1 series starting at 31K, combine that with even greater MPG, and tell me where is the value in buying a re-badged Civic?






If you think you will be able to get a future 1-series with a N20 for $31K (with any decent features included), I have a bridge in NY I would like to sell you.
cgx
Profile for cgx
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-27-2012 12:43
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Hondu wrote: If you think you will be able to get a future 1-series with a N20 for $31K (with any decent features included), I have a bridge in NY I would like to sell you.
Base MSRP for a 128 Coupe is $31,200. Add $895 for D/H, minus cost for BMW Ultimate Service for 4 years/50K.

Want useless bells and whistles and inferior build quality in place of superior mileage, no-cost maintenance and the Ultimate Driving Machine? Buy an Acura.

BMW. Win. Acura. Lost.


Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-27-2012 12:55
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cgx wrote:
Hondu wrote: If you think you will be able to get a future 1-series with a N20 for $31K (with any decent features included), I have a bridge in NY I would like to sell you.
Base MSRP for a 128 Coupe is $31,200. Add $895 for D/H, minus cost for BMW Ultimate Service for 4 years/50K.

Want useless bells and whistles and inferior build quality in place of superior mileage, no-cost maintenance and the Ultimate Driving Machine? Buy an Acura.

BMW. Win. Acura. Lost.





The 128i coupe does not have the N20 engine, but an I6. By the time it does have the N20 (2014-2015), I bet even the base will be more like $34K+. I would say Acura's build quality is on par with BMW's. The overall quality and dependability, even better.
cgx
Profile for cgx
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-27-2012 13:10
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So BMW moves from I6 to Turbo4 and base must increase by 2 or 3K?

Based on the F30 roll-out, it seems to me base pricing is inline with the outgoing E90.

Sure, there are more options to spend your money on, but that's BMW.

The point, back to the OP, is simply that if Acura was introducing a compelling engine option, like the N20, at a significantly lower price point, say 25K, with more bells and whistles, well, they would have something.

But, they don't.

They do have Song by Voice™ music selection though.

Wow.
Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-27-2012 13:28
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cgx wrote:
So BMW moves from I6 to Turbo4 and base must increase by 2 or 3K?

Based on the F30 roll-out, it seems to me base pricing is inline with the outgoing E90.

Sure, there are more options to spend your money on, but that's BMW.

The point, back to the OP, is simply that if Acura was introducing a compelling engine option, like the N20, at a significantly lower price point, say 25K, with more bells and whistles, well, they would have something.

But, they don't.

They do have Song by Voice™ music selection though.

Wow.



The price goes up because the base price of the 1-series goes up every year, not because of the engine change. By the time the N20 is available for the 1-series in the US (2014-2105 timeframe), the base price will probably be around $34K.

The prices went up $300-500 for the new base 3-er, but if you want one of the new "lines" (i.e. Luxury, Sport, etc.), the price went up more like $1000-1500 or more.
jero
Profile for jero
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-28-2012 00:36
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BMWs are high lease rate vehicles. Off lease deals are sweet.

The bottom line is, do you want a $40k+ RWD 240/200 bmw fully maintained with 40k miles for the price of a new civic ex-l at 140/130?

Cars are more reliable than ever, and DIY internet forums are a lifesaver from stealerships.

Honda/Acura is a stepping stone to BMW/AUDI, plain and simple.

P54
Profile for P54
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-28-2012 21:37
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Hondu wrote:
cgx wrote:
Hondu wrote: If you think you will be able to get a future 1-series with a N20 for $31K (with any decent features included), I have a bridge in NY I would like to sell you.
Base MSRP for a 128 Coupe is $31,200. Add $895 for D/H, minus cost for BMW Ultimate Service for 4 years/50K.

Want useless bells and whistles and inferior build quality in place of superior mileage, no-cost maintenance and the Ultimate Driving Machine? Buy an Acura.

BMW. Win. Acura. Lost.





The 128i coupe does not have the N20 engine, but an I6. By the time it does have the N20 (2014-2015), I bet even the base will be more like $34K+. I would say Acura's build quality is on par with BMW's. The overall quality and dependability, even better.



Did not BMW recently say their future engine across the brand would be 3 cyl engines?
TurboHonda
Profile for TurboHonda
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-29-2012 09:14
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The engine seems to be superb, great power and MPG and makes their own 335 diesel seem obsolete. The ILX is nowhere near any 3 series so they should not be compared at all.
Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-29-2012 17:44
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cgx wrote:
So BMW moves from I6 to Turbo4 and base must increase by 2 or 3K?

Based on the F30 roll-out, it seems to me base pricing is inline with the outgoing E90.

Sure, there are more options to spend your money on, but that's BMW.

The point, back to the OP, is simply that if Acura was introducing a compelling engine option, like the N20, at a significantly lower price point, say 25K, with more bells and whistles, well, they would have something.

But, they don't.

They do have Song by Voice™ music selection though.

Wow.



I think he's referring to a decently equipped 128i...and a decently equipped 128i is definitely over $31k.

The thing is, yes, the N20 is a compelling engine option. It's very good ON PAPER -> good hp, good torque at low rpm, very good EPA ratings. Then again, this is a brand new engine. Why is it so surprising that it can do well on paper?

You want an Acura with something like the N20, at $25k, with more bells and whistles. Unfortunately, that will never happen. For $25k, you can get a BASE Hyundai Genesis, or a base Camaro V6/Mustang V6 with a couple of options. You can also get a base Subaru Impreza WRX or a base Mazdaspeed3. I also believe you can get the upcoming base Toyota FR-S/Subaru BR-Z for $25k. They will all satisfy the need for speed part, but bells and whistles? Probably not. You also want the bells and whistles on these cars? You better have around $30k. And even at so, do they give you some sort of a premium image (not that Acura has much, but at least it's still better I'd say)?

I think we have to be more realistic here.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-29-2012 19:56
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Hondarulez wrote:
cgx wrote:
So BMW moves from I6 to Turbo4 and base must increase by 2 or 3K?

Based on the F30 roll-out, it seems to me base pricing is inline with the outgoing E90.

Sure, there are more options to spend your money on, but that's BMW.

The point, back to the OP, is simply that if Acura was introducing a compelling engine option, like the N20, at a significantly lower price point, say 25K, with more bells and whistles, well, they would have something.

But, they don't.

They do have Song by Voice™ music selection though.

Wow.



I think he's referring to a decently equipped 128i...and a decently equipped 128i is definitely over $31k.

The thing is, yes, the N20 is a compelling engine option. It's very good ON PAPER -> good hp, good torque at low rpm, very good EPA ratings. Then again, this is a brand new engine. Why is it so surprising that it can do well on paper?

You want an Acura with something like the N20, at $25k, with more bells and whistles. Unfortunately, that will never happen. For $25k, you can get a BASE Hyundai Genesis, or a base Camaro V6/Mustang V6 with a couple of options. You can also get a base Subaru Impreza WRX or a base Mazdaspeed3. I also believe you can get the upcoming base Toyota FR-S/Subaru BR-Z for $25k. They will all satisfy the need for speed part, but bells and whistles? Probably not. You also want the bells and whistles on these cars? You better have around $30k. And even at so, do they give you some sort of a premium image (not that Acura has much, but at least it's still better I'd say)?

I think we have to be more realistic here.




I can confidently say that the N20 isn't just good "on paper". Were you not listening to the part where I said this is an engine that other companies are benchmarking?
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-29-2012 19:57
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jero wrote:
BMWs are high lease rate vehicles. Off lease deals are sweet.

The bottom line is, do you want a $40k+ RWD 240/200 bmw fully maintained with 40k miles for the price of a new civic ex-l at 140/130?

Cars are more reliable than ever, and DIY internet forums are a lifesaver from stealerships.

Honda/Acura is a stepping stone to BMW/AUDI, plain and simple.




It's almost impossible to service a BMW by yourself.
Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: Meanwhile over at BMW... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-01-2012 17:16
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
cgx wrote:
So BMW moves from I6 to Turbo4 and base must increase by 2 or 3K?

Based on the F30 roll-out, it seems to me base pricing is inline with the outgoing E90.

Sure, there are more options to spend your money on, but that's BMW.

The point, back to the OP, is simply that if Acura was introducing a compelling engine option, like the N20, at a significantly lower price point, say 25K, with more bells and whistles, well, they would have something.

But, they don't.

They do have Song by Voice™ music selection though.

Wow.



I think he's referring to a decently equipped 128i...and a decently equipped 128i is definitely over $31k.

The thing is, yes, the N20 is a compelling engine option. It's very good ON PAPER -> good hp, good torque at low rpm, very good EPA ratings. Then again, this is a brand new engine. Why is it so surprising that it can do well on paper?

You want an Acura with something like the N20, at $25k, with more bells and whistles. Unfortunately, that will never happen. For $25k, you can get a BASE Hyundai Genesis, or a base Camaro V6/Mustang V6 with a couple of options. You can also get a base Subaru Impreza WRX or a base Mazdaspeed3. I also believe you can get the upcoming base Toyota FR-S/Subaru BR-Z for $25k. They will all satisfy the need for speed part, but bells and whistles? Probably not. You also want the bells and whistles on these cars? You better have around $30k. And even at so, do they give you some sort of a premium image (not that Acura has much, but at least it's still better I'd say)?

I think we have to be more realistic here.




I can confidently say that the N20 isn't just good "on paper". Were you not listening to the part where I said this is an engine that other companies are benchmarking?



Yes, I know it's a good engine. I'm mainly talking about its mpg. It's brand spanking new with so many new technologies. But still, its real-world mpg, despite not having too much data, isn't as good it should be according to Motortrend. It got 30.xxmpg travelling on the highway at 75-80mph. That's roughly the same as the heavier TSX V6 with 5AT.
 
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