longhorn
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Somewhere in Torrance there is a product manager with a smug smile on his face. Despite the panning by Consumer Reports and Auto media the Civic is kicking butt and taking names. Other than lease deals (that were not all that great), the car has been moving with much marketing help.....Impressive.
Now the quote from CEO Ito about not making major changes this fall to the Civic makes sense.
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DCR
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I thought I was going to read about the new Camry in here.
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HONDA AFVM
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longhorn wrote:
Somewhere in Torrance there is a product manager with a smug smile on his face. Despite the panning by Consumer Reports and Auto media the Civic is kicking butt and taking names. Other than lease deals (that were not all that great), the car has been moving with much marketing help.....Impressive.
Now the quote from CEO Ito about not making major changes this fall to the Civic makes sense.
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Where is this "Quote"?
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longhorn
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Not a quote, a story in Autonews from CEO Ito address about Honda's financial outlook.
per Autonews.
The Accord is Honda's best-selling U.S. model, followed by the Civic. Ito ruled out any major overhaul of the Civic after the current version of the sedan, which failed to receive the "recommended" status its predecessors had from Consumer Reports magazine, was the best-selling model in the compact-car segment in the last three months of 2012.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120126/OEM/301269699#ixzz1lAGfZQbr
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integrator
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This number is certainly 'up' over the Jan '11 number, but that number was winding down production from the previous generation. I certainly expect this to better last years numbers at least but I'm not sure that 21k units in Jan puts this on track to exceed the 300k+/yr sales that the Civic has done in the near past with the gen 8... which I'm sure Honda now considers to be 'like hotcakes'.
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NoSpinZone
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I consider the public that purchases sub-par Honda products to now officially be the enemy.
I wish they'd all just go buy Corollas... we know most of them don't know the difference anyway.
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MasterOfDaDomain
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Toyota passenger cars are up 20%. Camry sold over 28K. Nissan sold over 22K Altima.
Civic sells fine but that doesn't mean it's a great car. It probably compensates for the lackluster Accord sales.
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iutodd
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integrator wrote:
This number is certainly 'up' over the Jan '11 number, but that number was winding down production from the previous generation. I certainly expect this to better last years numbers at least but I'm not sure that 21k units in Jan puts this on track to exceed the 300k+/yr sales that the Civic has done in the near past with the gen 8... which I'm sure Honda now considers to be 'like hotcakes'.
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When the Auto Industry, as a whole, goes from 17 million sales overall (in 2005) to 12 million sales (in 2011) then you bet numbers and the idea of what "selling like hotcakes" changes.
BUT...just for the record - in 2005, the Civic sold 15K in January and sold 308K total for the year. In 2006 they sold 24K in January and 316K overall. In 2007 they sold 18K in January and 331K overall. In 2008 they sold 21K in January and 339K overall. In 2009 they sold 14K in January and 259K overall. In 2010 they sold 14K in January and 260K overall. In 2011 they sold 14K in January and 221K overall.
So really the number for January is really good compared to 2009, 2010 and 2011 - which were all the 8th Gen numbers - and not just last year. Even in the heady days of 2005 and 2007 this year beat those numbers handily.
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typer_801
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Still doesn't mean it's a good car. Example: Ford Escape, it's a terrible compact SUV, but sold in numbers very close to the CRV as late as this past fall (like 18K units per month).
Recent article also suggested a lot of buyer perception is based on the overall Brand, not necessarily the car. That makes sense to me. That same article also mentioned Honda Brand perception is declining as the Domestics and Koreans is improving. If Honda keeps pumping out ho-hum products like the Civic perception AND sales will both decline.
You might argue that's why Accord sales are down. The Civic is a gateway to other Honda products and without a strong Civic, future sales into the brand will also be hurt because the afinity for the brand (developed from the Civic) simply won't exist.
longhorn wrote:
Somewhere in Torrance there is a product manager with a smug smile on his face. Despite the panning by Consumer Reports and Auto media the Civic is kicking butt and taking names. Other than lease deals (that were not all that great), the car has been moving with much marketing help.....Impressive.
Now the quote from CEO Ito about not making major changes this fall to the Civic makes sense.
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Colin
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iutodd wrote:
When the Auto Industry, as a whole, goes from 17 million sales overall (in 2005) to 12 million sales (in 2011) then you bet numbers and the idea of what "selling like hotcakes" changes.
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I believe that the Civic factory needs 3 shifts to do 300K+ cars so if they're headed for that kind of volume, it could be 'hotcakes' empirically as well as relatively (to the industry). Won't the ILX be made at this plant? Are they also moving hybrid (HCH and ILX) production to the US? As odd as it sounds, they could be running up against plant capacity.
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iutodd
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NoSpinZone wrote:
I consider the public that purchases sub-par Honda products to now officially be the enemy.
I wish they'd all just go buy Corollas... we know most of them don't know the difference anyway.
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Yeah - I mean I've sat in both and can barely tell the difference when I'm behind the wheel. The interiors might as well be copies as they are so similar.
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NoSpinZone
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iutodd,
I mean that a lot of people that want a Civic would be perfectly happy with a Corolla, because all they want is a reliable, efficient economy car. The fact that the Civic has a techier interior is irrelevant.
I think the masses that buy Honda's because they're reliable and efficient with no care for interior quality, performance, or fit and finish dumb down Honda's products for the rest of us.
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according2kev
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typer_801 wrote:
Still doesn't mean it's a good car. Example: Ford Escape, it's a terrible compact SUV, but sold in numbers very close to the CRV as late as this past fall (like 18K units per month).
Recent article also suggested a lot of buyer perception is based on the overall Brand, not necessarily the car. That makes sense to me. That same article also mentioned Honda Brand perception is declining as the Domestics and Koreans is improving. If Honda keeps pumping out ho-hum products like the Civic perception AND sales will both decline.
You might argue that's why Accord sales are down. The Civic is a gateway to other Honda products and without a strong Civic, future sales into the brand will also be hurt because the afinity for the brand (developed from the Civic) simply won't exist.
longhorn wrote:
Somewhere in Torrance there is a product manager with a smug smile on his face. Despite the panning by Consumer Reports and Auto media the Civic is kicking butt and taking names. Other than lease deals (that were not all that great), the car has been moving with much marketing help.....Impressive.
Now the quote from CEO Ito about not making major changes this fall to the Civic makes sense.
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Funny you mention the Escape. The last time I passed one of our Progressive Insurance agaencies, it looked like a mini Ford lot.
I don't believe anyone claimed the Civic was good or great. The point was despite all the negative press it's selling well now that inventories are getting back to normal.
Like the another member, it's kinda scary that the Civic is selling well with the downgraded interior. It could give Honda the wrong impression.
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Tigerriot
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according2kev wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Still doesn't mean it's a good car. Example: Ford Escape, it's a terrible compact SUV, but sold in numbers very close to the CRV as late as this past fall (like 18K units per month).
Recent article also suggested a lot of buyer perception is based on the overall Brand, not necessarily the car. That makes sense to me. That same article also mentioned Honda Brand perception is declining as the Domestics and Koreans is improving. If Honda keeps pumping out ho-hum products like the Civic perception AND sales will both decline.
You might argue that's why Accord sales are down. The Civic is a gateway to other Honda products and without a strong Civic, future sales into the brand will also be hurt because the afinity for the brand (developed from the Civic) simply won't exist.
longhorn wrote:
Somewhere in Torrance there is a product manager with a smug smile on his face. Despite the panning by Consumer Reports and Auto media the Civic is kicking butt and taking names. Other than lease deals (that were not all that great), the car has been moving with much marketing help.....Impressive.
Now the quote from CEO Ito about not making major changes this fall to the Civic makes sense.
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Funny you mention the Escape. The last time I passed one of our Progressive Insurance agaencies, it looked like a mini Ford lot.
I don't believe anyone claimed the Civic was good or great. The point was despite all the negative press it's selling well now that inventories are getting back to normal.
Like the another member, it's kinda scary that the Civic is selling well with the downgraded interior. It could give Honda the wrong impression.
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It already has given them the wrong impression, as proven by the Ito comments quoted earlier. They're aware that most of their costumers buy their cars because of the reliability. I guess they've decided that's the only thing they really have to concern themselves with now.
They had just better be careful that their reliability doesn't slip, even a little, because the competition is making mostly better cars at this point. The reliability is the only thing keeping their sales strong.
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rev2damoon
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I find Honda's stubborness and arrogance regarding the Civic very, very disturbing. Increasing sales of the Civic does NOT mean it doesn't have issues which need to be addressed.
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DCR
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rev2damoon wrote:
I find Honda's stubborness and arrogance regarding the Civic very, very disturbing. Increasing sales of the Civic does NOT mean it doesn't have issues which need to be addressed.
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The back and forth on this really is what bothers me the most. I was quite excited when I heard they were going to make some changes.
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according2kev
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I'm hoping they haven't completely decided against the upgrade but rather pushed it back for the normal mmc. Although I feel it needs improvement right now, it's better a little late than never.
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iutodd
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NoSpinZone wrote:
iutodd,
I mean that a lot of people that want a Civic would be perfectly happy with a Corolla, because all they want is a reliable, efficient economy car. The fact that the Civic has a techier interior is irrelevant.
I think the masses that buy Honda's because they're reliable and efficient with no care for interior quality, performance, or fit and finish dumb down Honda's products for the rest of us.
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So Honda should cater to the few rather than the many? I know that the answer which makes the most sense is that they should cater to both in as many ways as possible. They are making a lot of noise like they are trying to do that...but we haven't seen anything just yet. I know that the Earth Dreams Tech just debuted two months ago and we're going to have to be patient...I've already voiced my displeasure with the power train choices in the ILX in particular...but hopefully the new Accord shows us, and the few, that Honda has a lot of good stuff coming.
And it's amazing to me how belittled reliability and efficiency are by some on this forum. Would you guys speak so highly about Integra's or the K20 if they broke down every 60K miles? Reliability is part of Honda's heritage. And it's the part that I, and a lot of other people, understand the most (because cars are investments). I also, because of my relative newness to the brand, don't see the same decline in interior quality that others see. Honda has improved the quality of the interior of the Fit, Insight and Pilot since I've been around by responding to customer and media criticisms. They've talked heavily about "fixing" the Civic, but now that may or may not happen.
They have also taken a seemingly new approach to in-car and safety tech with an emphasis on lowering the point of entry on a lot of their technology (though that remains to be seen on the new safety tech). And critics will point to how others have been doing it for years...but the point is that others HAD to do it because Honda's reliability and efficiency and build quality were unmatchable. Some of that is changing (at least on paper) but a lot of it is not.
And the hell of it is - we have examples of cars from other brands that have increased sales with interiors that are worse than before (Jetta), or have poor fit and finish on the interior (Optima), or have had terrible reviews from respected institutions (Explorer). So...is Honda really alone in it's supposed "failures"? I know that isn't the point really but sometimes we act like Honda is the only car company on the planet that is having issues.
I don't disagree that a lot of people want a reliable and efficient car. Obviously Honda is good at making one.
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Kongming
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If they don't make enough/satisfactory changes... well looks like I won't be buying a Civic.
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atomiclightbulb
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NoSpinZone wrote:
I think the masses that buy Honda's because they're reliable and efficient with no care for interior quality, performance, or fit and finish dumb down Honda's products for the rest of us. |
Your characterization of the 9G Civic is unfair IMO.
I agree that the quality of interior materials is mediocre. I also think the dash design is inelegant.
However, the fit and finish of the 9G is actually excellent. I've sat inside the EX-L and driven the EX. The car looks and feels very precisely manufactured. It drives solidly and confidently.
Also, performance is good, even without direct injection or a 6AT. This has been discussed ad nauseum in many other threads. The 9G's R18 has a competitive 0-60 time, and usually defeats other 1.8L engines in passing power, while still returning best-in-class real world fuel economy. The Civic Si is a different matter, but the complaints here have more to do with the nature of the engine than its actual performance.
I don't think Honda has fallen behind the competition in performance, real world fuel economy, or fit and finish. Where they haven't been class leading is interior materials and design. Hopefully the ILX will render these deficiencies more or less moot for the discerning car buyer.
The free market has spoken, and it has embraced the 9G Civic. I think it is clear that consumers see the benefits of the Civic's design. As an integrated system, Civic still works better than these competitors. Yes, the gap has closed, and it is essential that Honda improve the Civic to keep it ahead, but they didn't screw up as badly as the community here generally thinks.
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deanh
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Call me literal minded, but the word "major" is key here, I think. You are still going to see tweaks done for interior quality, making blue tooth standard on LX, and probably some updates to the either the steering or suspension to improve feel and handling. Will you see radical changes to the design or interior layout - no - hence the word nothing "major." At least, that is my opinion.
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DCR
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
Yes, the gap has closed, and it is essential that Honda improve the Civic to keep it ahead, but they didn't screw up as badly as the community here generally thinks.
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One month in.
I won't buy one, and neither will many more here. They screwed it up enough for me, that is for sure. There are a few Corollas on the lot now that wouldn't have been, but I am not sure what that does for us all.
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RayChuang
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longhorn wrote:
Somewhere in Torrance there is a product manager with a smug smile on his face. Despite the panning by Consumer Reports and Auto media the Civic is kicking butt and taking names. Other than lease deals (that were not all that great), the car has been moving with much marketing help.....Impressive.
Now the quote from CEO Ito about not making major changes this fall to the Civic makes sense.
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However, I do think we will see the MMC version of the Civic with the Earth Dreams Technology 2.0-liter I-4 engine, (likely) new CVT automatic, suspension changes and revised front dash possibly as early as early in calendar year 2013. Power will (in my opinion!) probably rise to around 150-155 bhp, but with much better fuel economy than now with the R18 engine and five-speed automatic.
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CarPhreakD
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You guys need to think about context. The MMC has always been said to be "accelerated forward", but that does not mean that a drastic overhaul in the form of a FMC is going to take place.
As far as I am aware, those MMC changes are still going through. How extensive it is remains to be seen... but honestly, with some revised tuning, front and rear bumpers, lights and interior trim, the baser Civics should be highly competitive. The bones on the car are great, but the product was simply half baked on the get-go and some details need better execution. With the panning that Honda got, you would hope that they got the message to invest a bit more into the MMC- they did it before, with cars like the RSX, RL and 7th gen Accord.
There's no saving the Civic Si though, not with Honda's newly announced engine lineup.
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DanielAcosta
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CarPhreakD wrote:
You guys need to think about context. The MMC has always been said to be "accelerated forward", but that does not mean that a drastic overhaul in the form of a FMC is going to take place.
As far as I am aware, those MMC changes are still going through. How extensive it is remains to be seen... but honestly, with some revised tuning, front and rear bumpers, lights and interior trim, the baser Civics should be highly competitive. The bones on the car are great, but the product was simply half baked on the get-go and some details need better execution. With the panning that Honda got, you would hope that they got the message to invest a bit more into the MMC- they did it before, with cars like the RSX, RL and 7th gen Accord.
There's no saving the Civic Si though, not with Honda's newly announced engine lineup.
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The 12 CRV LX was delayed to include BT, so I have no doubt the 13 Civic and Accord will also get BT across the board.
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FiSH-Chan
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CarPhreakD wrote:
There's no saving the Civic Si though, not with Honda's newly announced engine lineup.
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I thought I read that there was a 1.8 engine in the Earth dreams that has the most tech, full vtec and exhaust.
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Alex_Bog_16v
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Well, congratulations to Honda for becoming Toyota, thus selling their 'appliances' like hotcakes.
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Carmissimo
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Another product that got a thumbs down from CR would be Apple's iPhone.
Sadly for CR declaring that a product is not recommended has no impact on most consumers' buying decisions.
I never paid attention to CR's assessment of cars in terms of styling, performance, etc. There is only one measure that matters to me R-E-L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y. Since CR has no evidence to suggest that the new version of the Civic is less reliable than previous versions, as far as CR's contribution to this discussion goes, the Civic still gets a seal of approval.
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fatbloke
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NoSpinZone wrote:
I consider the public that purchases sub-par Honda products to now officially be the enemy.
I wish they'd all just go buy Corollas... we know most of them don't know the difference anyway.
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If you can't tell the differance why the hell would you buy a Corolla. Horrible car!
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Grace141
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iutodd wrote:
So Honda should cater to the few rather than the many? I know that the answer which makes the most sense is that they should cater to both in as many ways as possible. They are making a lot of noise like they are trying to do that...but we haven't seen anything just yet. I know that the Earth Dreams Tech just debuted two months ago and we're going to have to be patient...I've already voiced my displeasure with the power train choices in the ILX in particular...but hopefully the new Accord shows us, and the few, that Honda has a lot of good stuff coming.
And it's amazing to me how belittled reliability and efficiency are by some on this forum. Would you guys speak so highly about Integra's or the K20 if they broke down every 60K miles? Reliability is part of Honda's heritage. And it's the part that I, and a lot of other people, understand the most (because cars are investments). I also, because of my relative newness to the brand, don't see the same decline in interior quality that others see. Honda has improved the quality of the interior of the Fit, Insight and Pilot since I've been around by responding to customer and media criticisms. They've talked heavily about "fixing" the Civic, but now that may or may not happen.
They have also taken a seemingly new approach to in-car and safety tech with an emphasis on lowering the point of entry on a lot of their technology (though that remains to be seen on the new safety tech). And critics will point to how others have been doing it for years...but the point is that others HAD to do it because Honda's reliability and efficiency and build quality were unmatchable. Some of that is changing (at least on paper) but a lot of it is not.
And the hell of it is - we have examples of cars from other brands that have increased sales with interiors that are worse than before (Jetta), or have poor fit and finish on the interior (Optima), or have had terrible reviews from respected institutions (Explorer). So...is Honda really alone in it's supposed "failures"? I know that isn't the point really but sometimes we act like Honda is the only car company on the planet that is having issues.
I don't disagree that a lot of people want a reliable and efficient car. Obviously Honda is good at making one.
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I think most of the complaints about the '12 Civic have come from people who owned late '90s Civics or Integras for their first Hondas. I think the '96 Civic hit a nice balance on the quality feel of materials and cost in an economy car for the masses. I didn't care for the '96 Civic when it was introduced because Honda dumbed the car down from the previous generation especially with deleting the rear disk brakes the '95 EX Civics had in favor of drums and the styling of the '96 was rather sedate compared to that of the '95. There was a report in the car magazines at the time of Honda saying its core customer group thought the '92-'95 Civics looked a little too sporty.
I also think the differences between the '11 and '12 Civics center less on materials used than on how they are used and I bet the same panels and pieces molded with richer surface textures would change the mood about the car significantly. I don't mind the size and shape of the gray dash assembly but it just looks too smooth. Smooth surfaces make a person think they are either hard as metal or flimsy and breakable. As for the hard plastic door caps look around, nearly all cars have them today. I still don't understand why the massive step down in the use of soft touch materials between the '02 and '03 Accords was never a topic on TOV.
One problem with Honda and Acura cars is that since they are intended to be used as a commodity they don't commonly graduate to collector status therefore few of us can go out and drive an '87 Accord for reference. It's also difficult to find a well maintained late '90s Civic LX sedan to compare with the '12 Civic LX sedan - most of the late '90s Civics have been modified or are in poor repair. The interior of the '12 Civic looks cheap compared to that of a '00 Civic but it's really not a cheap looking Honda interior. It's my opinion the new Civic would look much better from the driver's seat if it had real gauges and not the Nintendo-looking piece of plastic used for the tach in the '06 to present cars - I didn't care for the '06 Civic when it was introduced simply because of the fake looking tach and the expanses of flat plastic on either side of the gauge pod behind the steering wheel. No driving enthusiast really wants to feel like he/she is driving a toy.
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