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WongKN
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Pretty clearly successful sales and mass media praise do not need to go hand in hand. The 9th generation Civic proves tha
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It is this sort of statement that I am trying to explain about. My point is that the moment one talk about sales numbers as the main measure of success, it means four things really
1. No more focus on the enthusiast
2. Focus on the mass market
3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media
4. Treat government and media ratings as 'words of god'.
What I have seen very commonly done here nowadays is that whenever there are any negatives points brought up about a Honda model, it will be quickly pointed out that it is gathering real good sales. And it is dominating its segment. Then a bad review comes out. Or Honda does badly in some ratings, like EPA or some long term reliability rating by some magaizine. Attempts will then made to put lesser emphasis on those reviews. Often those who puts emphasis on the review will be told that as 'true Honda fans', they should know better. "Honda doesn't score well in EPA but will over-deliver in real life economy" for e.g. But the problem is those people above who first pointed the bad news out, they -already know-. The issue is the mass market are the one who puts everything on an EPA figure. And again they come hand in hand - pander to the mass market, you need to pander to all these reviews and ratings.
I am not sure if you are a regular Honda fan like me, or maybe you are working for Honda, as a dealer, or even within the Honda organization itself. But if you are the latter, then I think you will know what I mean when I say to not put too much emphasis on the recent success in sales of the Civic. There is a possibility that it is due to latent demand, -pent up- sales that are now opened up because the supply situation has been rectified. I know for a fact that Honda Malaysia is aware and understand this phenomenon very well as it is now happening in most parts of ASEAN. I believe Daniel has also tried to point out this fact recently as well.
If the Civic is such a great success as measured by its sales alone, then why is Honda supposedly going to do a 'renewal' on the car so early ? That to me is a key question. Assuming the rumours are true of course. It is because when it is now targetted at the mass market, then all those negative reviews, etc, they DO matter to Honda. It is not only outright sales alone. So forget about any Earth Dreams technology coming to the Civic so fast. It would be wonderful if it happens. But most likely is this 'redo', if it is true, then it is to pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media. I.e. expect to see efforts to improve on road noise and ride quality. Not a bad thing actually. Hopefully the interior quality will also be improved. I believe there have been some reviews criticising this so Civic fans who are not happy about this, they are in luck for this area. Hopefully the one or two reviews criticizing the Civic for lacking the 'fire' of its predecessors, those media are held in high enough esteem by Honda that they will do something about it. If any ED technology do indeed makes it to this Civic redo, then probably those media reviews are responsible. As for us here in TOV, well I do hope that those of us 'complaining' about the Civic here, they are heard as well and Honda will at least do something about the complaints. Hopefully if Honda is really monitoring this forum, they don't just read all those 'Civic is a success because it sells well' posts, and ignores those posts that points out issues with the car.
Hope you don't misunderstand my post as being negative or pointed at you. It is just open honest discussion.
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owequitit
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5-Honda-Man wrote:
I rather think Honda is getting whipsawed by automotive journalistic fashion, on one hand, and an extreme minority of Civic-minded automotive enthusiasts, on the other. Honda's mistake was not the 9th generation Civic's design, but rather to "blink" in the face of the meaningless noise.
Consider this. With a few noteworthy exceptions, journalists load praise on the Hyundai Elantra, Chevy Cruze, Ford Focus and Mazda 3 Skyactiv. However, when was the last time Hyundai, Ford or Chevy built a vehicle in this segment that didn't fall apart in the first 100k miles? Similarly, to reach class fuel economy targets (~40mpg Hwy), Mazda needed a new massively high compression engine and a new set of transmissions. The Slyactiv manual is already showing problems. The jury is out on the Mazda high compression engine, and despite all the hype about new technology, with a handful of engineering tweaks to the existing engine and transmissions, all proven and reliable, Honda hits the same mark. Good engineering is about refinement and improvement not erasing the whiteboard and rolling the dice anew.
Another long term gremlin bemoaned for a decade by journalists and buyers alike is road and tire noise. In the 9th generation Civic Honda delivered a much, much quieter car. Considering that more than half of all new Civics see daily commute duty with a mature driver behind the wheel, this innovation represents something meaningful for the majority of would-be buyers.
I've owned the following Honda products: 1988 Civic, 2000 CR-V, 2001 S2000, 2002 Civic Hybrid, 2002 Pilot, 2004 Civic Hybrid, 2004 Pilot, and 2005 Acura RL. After a hiatus of several years, I'm looking again at Honda products (I need a commuter car to replace my POS 2010 VW GTI DSG) and am cross shopping Hondas (the Civic is high on my list) against peers. The Elantra, in particular, is a QC nightmare. The two I've driven both had stitching fraying on seat bolsters and on the leather steering wheel cover. Imagine what that interior will look like in a year or two?
Horses for courses as they say, and in this case my course is two-fold; getting to and back from work in quiet, fuel efficient comfort (70 mile roundtrip daily commute; much of it stop and go) and a reasonably comfortable and efficient roadtrip vehicle for my wife and I (wine tasting, hitting the beach, etc.). If I wanted a car for fun and hoonery, I'd be looking at the upcoming BRZ/FR-S, not any Civic (sorry Si).
I thought that the GTI might be able to cover all three courses (hoonery, commute and wife-friendly trip car) but alas, no. It's 18" alloys produce chitty ride quality on all but glass-smooth surfaces, and are prone to flatting on contact with potholes. Fine for playing, but lousy for Despite its praised soft-touch dash materials, there are rattles and creaks aplenty. As you'd expect from the Germans, the electronics are a disaster. The TPMS system failure (not low pressure warning) light illuminates every few months and requires a dealer visit to correct. The lauded DSG transmission is crap on launch and at low speed, and worse, has a tendency to not engage reverse when the selector is put into reverse (bad for air dams in downslope parking spaces). But I digress...
My point is this. After a rough start (mostly due to the bad press and natural disasters), the 2012 Civic has again hit sales volume dominance in the segment, despite journalistic and Honda fanboi bicthin' and moanin' and despite the allegedly fancier offerings from Ford, Hyundai, Chevy and Mazda. Far from representing the end of the world as Honda knows it, this Civic is the best Civic ever for the majority of Civic users and, as sales are showing, the best car in the segment despite the over-promoted newly revised entrants from other marques.
I suspect this "do-over" won't come early as sales continue to strengthen. We heard the same kinds of promises for the Insight, and yet the MMC came on a more or less normal schedule, and ignored the biggest gripes. And what are the biggest gripes for the 2012 Civic? "I want a woven headliner!" "The dash (which we all
spend *a lot* of time fondling) isn't soft!" "The steering is too numb and I wanna put a coffee-can-sized Exhaust on my econo-compact and autocross it!" Seriously? In the grand scheme of things these are the size and importance of mouse nuts when it comes to sales.
The 9th generation Civic costs Honda less to make and delivers core buyers more of what they want than any prior Civic. Shareholders like it. Customers like it. I'd call that hitting the bullseye.
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Your post overlooks a couple of very important facts.
1) The sales volumes are up, but the part of the picture you haven't painted is what has happened to incentives. I don't remember the exact number, but the incentives on the 2012 are up something like $1500 bucks per car. It is unlikely that Honda is saving a unit cost of $1500 per car to manufacture, so while the car is likely cheaper to produce, it is unlikely that it is cheaper enough to offset the additional cash they are putting on the hood.
2) The interior complaints aren't just from "fanbois" which is a completely incorrect and derogatory term to begin with. For starters, you mention "mature" drivers, and by that I assume you mean old and geriatric. Not exactly the way Honda should be going (see the old Buick and Lincoln for evidence why). Considering that the Civic's median buyer age has typically been in the 30's, I don't see how a car appealing to blue haired, near deads is a good idea. This is the same median age creep Honda saw with the 8th gen Accord, which went from mid 40's to mid 50's practically overnight.
That said, I have seen complaints from a lot of "regular" Honda customers bemoaning the cheap feel and decontented nature of the current Civic. You see, you used to get into a Civic and be comforted by the fact that the materials and build quality were on par with much more expensive cars. Compared to the 8th gen Civic, the new one feels like crap. Compared to the 92-95 and 96-2000 Civics it is even worse. It just feels cheap and not very well put together.
3) We have owned an 88 Accord, 90 Accord, 2002 Accord EX-L V6, 2004 Accord EX-L V6, 2006 Accord EX-L V6, 2009 Accord EX-L V6, 89 Civic hatch, 92 Civic hatch, 99 Civic EX sedan, 00 Civic EX coupe, 01 Civic EX sedan, and a 2009 Civic Si, so it isn't like we are only buying sporty models. All but a couple of those have been 100% stock. I do all the maintenance, and we drive them far and wide, so I have intimate knowledge of "behind the scenes" build quality. I do not like the direction the new car has gone in terms of build quality. It is not all backward, but it isn't some giant leap forward either. The fact that the press (who has traditionally be very Honda favorable on the whole) and consumers have been vocal about it doesn't mean they are suddenly anti-Honda. The problem is that Honda set the bar high for themselves, and thus their inability to maintain it is their problem. The cash Honda is putting on the hood only confirms this.
Now to be clear, I do NOT believe that the Civic is some big piece of crap. It does well versus its competitors in terms of performance and MPG, and will likely be relatively free of major mechanical issues. But the real question is "will it look new in 20 years and 250K miles like most of Honda's products traditionally have?" If Honda had simply not slacked so much on interior quality, I don't think they would be having to put cash on the hood to get the volume they are getting. Most likely they could have made those customers wanting nicer interiors happy for far less than ~$1000-1500 per car. That in turn makes it more cost effective as a total picture, and not just on the front end.
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nash24
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To WongKn
the nz spec 9th gen civic is landed and similar to asian countries and the head lining looks fine, also we get the r18 and r20 engine with 5 speed paddleshift and i prefer our 8th spec.
To Owe
Ive had a EG and EK civic and though the dash maybe softer to touch its not far to compare that and forget to compare other factors that come with the new 9th gen or even 8th gen, like how many airbags did an EG have? VSA? etc etc
Cars have got bigger and i know which car i would rather be in a crash, my EK was lowered and i loved it but in a frontal!!.
Head liners and hard touch dashboards that arent wear and tear items should last the 20 years.
I hope you dont think im attacking you Owe, been reading your good posts for years and i agree with most of the things you post. From what i read Honda has had to use more incentives to move the civic, maybe to push sales after disasters, i dunno but then saying that i guess the crv hasnt been given away as the crv and sales look really good so far.
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PGH
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hondadude wrote:
A77 wrote:
It's not that the civic dash is not soft touch. The problem is it doesnt even look soft touch. The CRV's does - even though it isn't. Mmmm great Engish there...The civic's trouble is that the dash looks cheap. And customers do complain. Not that it seems a reason not to buy. The "rice paper" graining just isn't nice. There's nothing wrong with the actual assembly quality - its really good.
Last month's Canadian civic sales figures are truly amazing - the second highest I have ever seen - but even more amazing given the near total lack of interest in the car at my dealership last month. It wasn't that people were coming to look at it, there was just no interest. Nor so far this month. Despite tons of TV advertising. My only strong civic prospect right now is an elderly lady driving a 97 Avalon - and she says she really likes the Civic and it's the best vehicle she has driven. Nothing makes sense any more.
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Yeah, Honda really got it RIGHT with the 2012 CR-V overall and particularly the interior. The dash looks and feels high quality without being soft touch. The graining and appearance are spot on. When Honda does the 2013 Civic refresh they really need to use the same materials/graining as on the excellent CR-V.
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Yea, The interior looks good and the graining of the plastics is much better than the Civic but the CRV cost more. Too bad they couldn't get the exterior correct. The I want to be a Volvo rear end just doesn't work.
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A77
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There's nothing wrong with the ride quality of the current Civic, and it handles better than most cars in its class (mazda 3 being an obvious one). Just my own observations having driven them loads on the road in all kinds of conditions and on a track, against several competitors. Its also the opinion of every single customer with whom I have driven both. Only CR said it had a choppy ride. Bollocks.
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HONDA AFVM
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WongKN wrote:
Pretty clearly successful sales and mass media praise do not need to go hand in hand. The 9th generation Civic proves tha
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It is this sort of statement that I am trying to explain about. My point is that the moment one talk about sales numbers as the main measure of success, it means four things really
1. No more focus on the enthusiast
2. Focus on the mass market
3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media
4. Treat government and media ratings as 'words of god'.
What I have seen very commonly done here nowadays is that whenever there are any negatives points brought up about a Honda model, it will be quickly pointed out that it is gathering real good sales. And it is dominating its segment. Then a bad review comes out. Or Honda does badly in some ratings, like EPA or some long term reliability rating by some magaizine. Attempts will then made to put lesser emphasis on those reviews. Often those who puts emphasis on the review will be told that as 'true Honda fans', they should know better. "Honda doesn't score well in EPA but will over-deliver in real life economy" for e.g. But the problem is those people above who first pointed the bad news out, they -already know-. The issue is the mass market are the one who puts everything on an EPA figure. And again they come hand in hand - pander to the mass market, you need to pander to all these reviews and ratings.
I am not sure if you are a regular Honda fan like me, or maybe you are working for Honda, as a dealer, or even within the Honda organization itself. But if you are the latter, then I think you will know what I mean when I say to not put too much emphasis on the recent success in sales of the Civic. There is a possibility that it is due to latent demand, -pent up- sales that are now opened up because the supply situation has been rectified. I know for a fact that Honda Malaysia is aware and understand this phenomenon very well as it is now happening in most parts of ASEAN. I believe Daniel has also tried to point out this fact recently as well.
If the Civic is such a great success as measured by its sales alone, then why is Honda supposedly going to do a 'renewal' on the car so early ? That to me is a key question. Assuming the rumours are true of course. It is because when it is now targetted at the mass market, then all those negative reviews, etc, they DO matter to Honda. It is not only outright sales alone. So forget about any Earth Dreams technology coming to the Civic so fast. It would be wonderful if it happens. But most likely is this 'redo', if it is true, then it is to pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media. I.e. expect to see efforts to improve on road noise and ride quality. Not a bad thing actually. Hopefully the interior quality will also be improved. I believe there have been some reviews criticising this so Civic fans who are not happy about this, they are in luck for this area. Hopefully the one or two reviews criticizing the Civic for lacking the 'fire' of its predecessors, those media are held in high enough esteem by Honda that they will do something about it. If any ED technology do indeed makes it to this Civic redo, then probably those media reviews are responsible. As for us here in TOV, well I do hope that those of us 'complaining' about the Civic here, they are heard as well and Honda will at least do something about the complaints. Hopefully if Honda is really monitoring this forum, they don't just read all those 'Civic is a success because it sells well' posts, and ignores those posts that points out issues with the car.
Hope you don't misunderstand my post as being negative or pointed at you. It is just open honest discussion.
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WongKN.......
Luv ya man.........But as a sales person and an enthusiast, It's all about the mass market now because of all the competition. It used to be Honda could do anything they wanted because all they had was Toyota to worry about............But now, it's a numbers game only and us enthusiast get left behind because Fuel Economy and Government are #1 because there is NO WAY OUT of it.......
Honda has to sell so many cars a year to support it's job force too, and that means each car, the more they build, lowers the over all cost of doing business......the less cars increases the cost..........With Hyundai and KIA breathing down their necks and now BMW and MB moving in too.........GM, Ford and Chrysler/Fiat.........they are the SMALLEST company among them so they have to build products that sell...........
That's just my take on it...........
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superchg2
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
.But now, it's a numbers game only and us enthusiast get left behind because Fuel Economy and Government are #1 because there is NO WAY OUT of it.......
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It this is the future for Honda, then the enthusiasts will simply move on.
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rev2damoon
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I've already resigned myself to the fact that my next car will not be a Honda. They seem quite content in casting aside their enthusiast following. We're clearly not valued. I'll keep them on radar in case a miracle happens, but it isn't looking very promising. There aren't an abundance of brightspots. It's a shame really to see the demise of this once soulful comapany into just another soulless, corporate, bureaucratic machine that only cares about sharholders.
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P54
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Good luck to you and welcome back when you come back to your senses. Why base your opinion on one article when Ito himself on numerous occasions has said otherwise? Honda is in transition, great things will emerge.
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P54
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PGH wrote:
hondadude wrote:
A77 wrote:
It's not that the civic dash is not soft touch. The problem is it doesnt even look soft touch. The CRV's does - even though it isn't. Mmmm great Engish there...The civic's trouble is that the dash looks cheap. And customers do complain. Not that it seems a reason not to buy. The "rice paper" graining just isn't nice. There's nothing wrong with the actual assembly quality - its really good.
Last month's Canadian civic sales figures are truly amazing - the second highest I have ever seen - but even more amazing given the near total lack of interest in the car at my dealership last month. It wasn't that people were coming to look at it, there was just no interest. Nor so far this month. Despite tons of TV advertising. My only strong civic prospect right now is an elderly lady driving a 97 Avalon - and she says she really likes the Civic and it's the best vehicle she has driven. Nothing makes sense any more.
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Yeah, Honda really got it RIGHT with the 2012 CR-V overall and particularly the interior. The dash looks and feels high quality without being soft touch. The graining and appearance are spot on. When Honda does the 2013 Civic refresh they really need to use the same materials/graining as on the excellent CR-V.
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Yea, The interior looks good and the graining of the plastics is much better than the Civic but the CRV cost more. Too bad they couldn't get the exterior correct. The I want to be a Volvo rear end just doesn't work.
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See bold above. What do you mean?
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rev2damoon
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P54 wrote:
Good luck to you and welcome back when you come back to your senses. Why base your opinion on one article when Ito himself on numerous occasions has said otherwise? Honda is in transition, great things will emerge.
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My senses are perfectly fine, thank you. My opinion isn't based on "one" article, AND I'll believe the bolded when I see it.:-)
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owequitit
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
WongKN wrote:
Pretty clearly successful sales and mass media praise do not need to go hand in hand. The 9th generation Civic proves tha
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It is this sort of statement that I am trying to explain about. My point is that the moment one talk about sales numbers as the main measure of success, it means four things really
1. No more focus on the enthusiast
2. Focus on the mass market
3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media
4. Treat government and media ratings as 'words of god'.
What I have seen very commonly done here nowadays is that whenever there are any negatives points brought up about a Honda model, it will be quickly pointed out that it is gathering real good sales. And it is dominating its segment. Then a bad review comes out. Or Honda does badly in some ratings, like EPA or some long term reliability rating by some magaizine. Attempts will then made to put lesser emphasis on those reviews. Often those who puts emphasis on the review will be told that as 'true Honda fans', they should know better. "Honda doesn't score well in EPA but will over-deliver in real life economy" for e.g. But the problem is those people above who first pointed the bad news out, they -already know-. The issue is the mass market are the one who puts everything on an EPA figure. And again they come hand in hand - pander to the mass market, you need to pander to all these reviews and ratings.
I am not sure if you are a regular Honda fan like me, or maybe you are working for Honda, as a dealer, or even within the Honda organization itself. But if you are the latter, then I think you will know what I mean when I say to not put too much emphasis on the recent success in sales of the Civic. There is a possibility that it is due to latent demand, -pent up- sales that are now opened up because the supply situation has been rectified. I know for a fact that Honda Malaysia is aware and understand this phenomenon very well as it is now happening in most parts of ASEAN. I believe Daniel has also tried to point out this fact recently as well.
If the Civic is such a great success as measured by its sales alone, then why is Honda supposedly going to do a 'renewal' on the car so early ? That to me is a key question. Assuming the rumours are true of course. It is because when it is now targetted at the mass market, then all those negative reviews, etc, they DO matter to Honda. It is not only outright sales alone. So forget about any Earth Dreams technology coming to the Civic so fast. It would be wonderful if it happens. But most likely is this 'redo', if it is true, then it is to pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media. I.e. expect to see efforts to improve on road noise and ride quality. Not a bad thing actually. Hopefully the interior quality will also be improved. I believe there have been some reviews criticising this so Civic fans who are not happy about this, they are in luck for this area. Hopefully the one or two reviews criticizing the Civic for lacking the 'fire' of its predecessors, those media are held in high enough esteem by Honda that they will do something about it. If any ED technology do indeed makes it to this Civic redo, then probably those media reviews are responsible. As for us here in TOV, well I do hope that those of us 'complaining' about the Civic here, they are heard as well and Honda will at least do something about the complaints. Hopefully if Honda is really monitoring this forum, they don't just read all those 'Civic is a success because it sells well' posts, and ignores those posts that points out issues with the car.
Hope you don't misunderstand my post as being negative or pointed at you. It is just open honest discussion.
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WongKN.......
Luv ya man.........But as a sales person and an enthusiast, It's all about the mass market now because of all the competition. It used to be Honda could do anything they wanted because all they had was Toyota to worry about............But now, it's a numbers game only and us enthusiast get left behind because Fuel Economy and Government are #1 because there is NO WAY OUT of it.......
Honda has to sell so many cars a year to support it's job force too, and that means each car, the more they build, lowers the over all cost of doing business......the less cars increases the cost..........With Hyundai and KIA breathing down their necks and now BMW and MB moving in too.........GM, Ford and Chrysler/Fiat.........they are the SMALLEST company among them so they have to build products that sell...........
That's just my take on it...........
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Since when are quality and joy of ownership of ANY product qualities that don't sell?
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garoto628
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Honda is en-route to lose their sustainable competitive advantage.
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HondaFan1990
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5-Honda-Man wrote:
Actually, that's not really how American automotive journalism (or American journalism in general for that matter) actually operate. The role of journalists and their publications is to manufacture "news". They don't report facts. They self-promote to be heard. They want folks to read their work because that increases their advertising (banner or conventional) revenue. Truth is the first casualty in journalism; particularly journalism directed at consumer products.
Also, journalistic praise does not sell automobile, contrary to your assertion. For decades Mazda has been the poster child of the automotive "enthusiast" press. The compact car most journalists profess that they would buy personally is the Mazda 3. Yet the Mazda 3 isn't a serious player in the segment and Mazda continues to lose money.
The other phenomenon that affects consumer products journalism is the herd effect. The editors decide what the "story" is going to be for a given model typically before the model is even commercially released and definitely before they've driven it. Sure, facts can affect the details of the story, but it's a good story that sells advertising space, not a well-conducted review. One of the archetypical stories in automotive journalism is "the underdog comes on strong and the king is dethroned". Civic's time for the "dethroned" saga came up and the first negative review appeared. Not wanting to seem stupid or clueless, the next to publication major outlets modified their Civic "story" to echo what the first reviews claimed. CR, which is perhaps the most confused and factless automotive review source in print or on the web, jumped on the dog pile, because, after all, if CD, R&T and MT said it, by God they'd look like the skill-less drivers that they are if they bucked the trend.
Ironically, when you venture outside of the mainstream US automotive media and instead examine Canadian and syndicated newspaper reviewers (who didn't get the MT memo about the "story"), the conclusions are much more positive for the model.
As for catering to fans, automotive manufacturers who really care about the enthusiast segment recognize that the features that appeal to the enthusiast are, for the most part, liabilities for the vast majority of the customer base. Such manufacturers make enthusiast specific vehicles. Honda has done this from time to time (S2000, NSX). Trying to make a car a Jack of All Trades means that it will be master of none.
I'm not panning fans. I am a fan. But when I want a Honda car for play, I buy one that is designed for play, not for work-a-day commuting. Fans whining about the Civic not being higher performance, in my view, is a little like buying Limburger cheese and then complaining that it doesn't smell nice. If you wanted something that smelled nice (was performant) you should buy something that has nice smell (performance emphasis) in the first place rather than lamenting your selection of the wrong tool for the task.
I'd rather see the Civic stay on its maturation course and have Honda cook up a dedicated performance model or two for the fans than to try and make the Civic all things for all people (yeah, I know, that was their US launch theme; ironic huh?).
As for Mazda, Ford, Chevy and Hyundai making inroads, the luster of the hyped debut reviews (don't forget the "underdog" story!) is already wearing off. Frankly, I don't think consumers trust Ford, Chevy or Hyundai to be able to design and manufacture a lasting, quality product. Even is they were made of solid gold, and worth 100,000x their purchase price in mineral value alone, I don't think any of these three could effectively compete with Honda in this space even if Honda chose to sell the 2012 model for another 8 years.
Now if Toyota would fire the grandfathers managing the Corolla program, that might be another story. Mazda, also, is an engineering driven company, so they could have a seat at the table. Of course Skyactiv looks to be a farce in context of the market. 12-14 compression ratios, specially optimized 6-speed transmissions, header on some models, and fuel economy and straight line performance similar to a standard Honda transmission and engine that is what, 8 years old? Yikes.
At the end of the day, cars that sell the most are the successful ones whether or not the mass-market reviews tell you those are the models that should be successful. Selling cars is a business. Revenue and profit are the yardsticks business success are measured by, not brownie points with Consumer Reports.
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Your posts have been very insightful to read. The stance you take on Honda isn't based left or right, it seems. It's just neutral. These types of posts are needed on here IMHO. There's so much negative and attack and bitching about things. Nothing's discussed. Just attack anyone that isn't in agreement that Honda "sucks". I look forward to reading what you have to say.
All I can say to the more hard-core enthusiasts is either give Honda some time to turn things around, or move on to a different brand for the time being. No need to sit and moan at a place where you're not happy when you can have a big Kool Aid smile from somewhere else :D
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NealX
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"These types of posts are needed on here IMHO. There's so much negative and attack and bitching about things. Nothing's discussed. Just attack anyone that isn't in agreement that Honda "sucks". I look forward to reading what you have to say.
All I can say to the more hard-core enthusiasts is either give Honda some time to turn things around, or move on to a different brand for the time being. No need to sit and moan at a place where you're not happy when you can have a big Kool Aid smile from somewhere else :D "
I happy to see that within such a short time you've come to know what is "needed" here!
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330R
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I don't really think the new guy telling older members to accept change, wait (even longer), or move on, is going to work out very well. I'm certainly not going to toss out a "GTFO N00b" sentiment to you, HondaFan1990, but you need to realize this place has a history and you can't just come in and tell people what's what about their favorite car company, in this case. The same people you think have this "Honda sucks" mentality are actually the most ardent Honda-loving people. They're just beyond frustrated at the ways Honda has been going off the tracks. Some have moved on, and check in once in a while. All of us have waited. I'd say the vast majority know that all around, no one makes a car like Honda. That's why so many are so reluctant to move on, because they want their car to have the classic Honda virtues.
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Rgist85
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330R wrote:
I don't really think the new guy telling older members to accept change, wait (even longer), or move on, is going to work out very well. I'm certainly not going to toss out a "GTFO N00b" sentiment to you, HondaFan1990, but you need to realize this place has a history and you can't just come in and tell people what's what about their favorite car company, in this case. The same people you think have this "Honda sucks" mentality are actually the most ardent Honda-loving people. They're just beyond frustrated at the ways Honda has been going off the tracks. Some have moved on, and check in once in a while. All of us have waited. I'd say the vast majority know that all around, no one makes a car like Honda. That's why so many are so reluctant to move on, because they want their car to have the classic Honda virtues.
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Agreed :D
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superchg2
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
. No need to sit and moan at a place where you're not happy when you can have a big Kool Aid smile from somewhere else :D
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Kid, you did say you have not owned a Honda so far, right?
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superchg2
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
. No need to sit and moan at a place where you're not happy when you can have a big Kool Aid smile from somewhere else :D
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Kid, you did say you have not owned a Honda so far, right?
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5-Honda-Man
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"3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media "
But the mainstream media is bagging on the 2012 Civic for it's lack of enthusiastic performance. In other words, the criticism of the media is the same as the criticism of the disappointed enthusiast minority.
Honda specifically did NOT pander to the CD, R&T and MTs of the world. Instead they made a car that does a better job of satisfying the needs and preferences of more buyers. They bucked the media expectation rather than catering to it.
What you and other enthusiasts are pining for is exactly what you're decrying - you want Honda to accept the mass media criticism that the Civic is now too soft and not edgy enough. In other words, you want Honda to follow the word of *your* god rather than John Q Public's god. I'm an atheist and a rationalist. I think they did the right thing and delivered substance rather than image and marketing puffery.
I don't work for Honda. I've owned nine of them personally (including an Acura) in the last fifteen years. I've also owned BMWs, Toyotas, Mazdas, VWs, Porsche's and Subarus. I'm not a Civic fan or a Honda fan. I'm an automobile fan. I buy and sell lots of cars, all for my personal use. I admire vehicle models from any manufacturer that address the needs of their target segment well. I'm all for Honda developing a model or two that caters to enthusiasts. I'm against the notion that they should compromise the commute-worthiness of a particular model - the Civic - to make a handful of journalists and enthusiasts happy.
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DCR
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5-Honda-Man wrote:
"3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media "
But the mainstream media is bagging on the 2012 Civic for it's lack of enthusiastic performance. In other words, the criticism of the media is the same as the criticism of the disappointed enthusiast minority.
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Imagine that.
The 9th Gen Civic interior is shit. The steering is slower, and nothing has advanced under the hood.
I also enjoy how you equate Honda enthusiasts to the fart can mufflers and cone filter intakes. Every car brand has those guys, but that won't stop you from generalizing it here. Believe it or not, we've actually got some guys around here that have built some legit cars, and maybe one or two that do it for a living.
If you think Honda "bucked the media expectation", you are ridiculous. That is the polar opposite of what makes sense, but, you know better than we do.
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danielgr
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5-Honda-Man wrote:
"3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media "
But the mainstream media is bagging on the 2012 Civic for it's lack of enthusiastic performance. In other words, the criticism of the media is the same as the criticism of the disappointed enthusiast minority.
Honda specifically did NOT pander to the CD, R&T and MTs of the world. Instead they made a car that does a better job of satisfying the needs and preferences of more buyers. They bucked the media expectation rather than catering to it.
What you and other enthusiasts are pining for is exactly what you're decrying - you want Honda to accept the mass media criticism that the Civic is now too soft and not edgy enough. In other words, you want Honda to follow the word of *your* god rather than John Q Public's god. I'm an atheist and a rationalist. I think they did the right thing and delivered substance rather than image and marketing puffery.
I don't work for Honda. I've owned nine of them personally (including an Acura) in the last fifteen years. I've also owned BMWs, Toyotas, Mazdas, VWs, Porsche's and Subarus. I'm not a Civic fan or a Honda fan. I'm an automobile fan. I buy and sell lots of cars, all for my personal use. I admire vehicle models from any manufacturer that address the needs of their target segment well. I'm all for Honda developing a model or two that caters to enthusiasts. I'm against the notion that they should compromise the commute-worthiness of a particular model - the Civic - to make a handful of journalists and enthusiasts happy.
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Hope you don't get fed up after a few posts and disapear for the next 5 years !
Either way; appreciated it.
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330R
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5-Honda-Man wrote:
I think they did the right thing and delivered substance rather than image and marketing puffery. |
Does a higher performing (engine, suspension, steering, braking) car not deliver substance?
I'm all for Honda developing a model or two that caters to enthusiasts. I'm against the notion that they should compromise the commute-worthiness of a particular model - the Civic - to make a handful of journalists and enthusiasts happy.
|
I agree with you that Honda should bring a more dedicated performance enthusiast machine - an honest S2000 replacement - not a nouveau Beat, for example. That said, assuming you're familiar with the Civic Type-R lineage, from 1998-2010, those cars did nothing to encroach on the mainstream Civic models used for more normal routines and such. The 2006-11 North American Civic Si was the most performance oriented model we've received, and is totally suitable for daily driving, as much as the old Integra GS-R was in its time, but with even more room, more flexibility in the engine, a taller top gear for more relaxed highway driving, a very good stereo in relative terms. The Si never did anything to lessen the commuter-friendliness of the other trims.
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DCR
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danielgr wrote:
5-Honda-Man wrote:
"3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media "
But the mainstream media is bagging on the 2012 Civic for it's lack of enthusiastic performance. In other words, the criticism of the media is the same as the criticism of the disappointed enthusiast minority.
Honda specifically did NOT pander to the CD, R&T and MTs of the world. Instead they made a car that does a better job of satisfying the needs and preferences of more buyers. They bucked the media expectation rather than catering to it.
What you and other enthusiasts are pining for is exactly what you're decrying - you want Honda to accept the mass media criticism that the Civic is now too soft and not edgy enough. In other words, you want Honda to follow the word of *your* god rather than John Q Public's god. I'm an atheist and a rationalist. I think they did the right thing and delivered substance rather than image and marketing puffery.
I don't work for Honda. I've owned nine of them personally (including an Acura) in the last fifteen years. I've also owned BMWs, Toyotas, Mazdas, VWs, Porsche's and Subarus. I'm not a Civic fan or a Honda fan. I'm an automobile fan. I buy and sell lots of cars, all for my personal use. I admire vehicle models from any manufacturer that address the needs of their target segment well. I'm all for Honda developing a model or two that caters to enthusiasts. I'm against the notion that they should compromise the commute-worthiness of a particular model - the Civic - to make a handful of journalists and enthusiasts happy.
|
Hope you don't get fed up after a few posts and disapear for the next 5 years !
Either way; appreciated it.
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Of course you appreciate it.
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superchg2
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DCR wrote:
danielgr wrote:
5-Honda-Man wrote:
"3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media "
But the mainstream media is bagging on the 2012 Civic for it's lack of enthusiastic performance. In other words, the criticism of the media is the same as the criticism of the disappointed enthusiast minority.
Honda specifically did NOT pander to the CD, R&T and MTs of the world. Instead they made a car that does a better job of satisfying the needs and preferences of more buyers. They bucked the media expectation rather than catering to it.
What you and other enthusiasts are pining for is exactly what you're decrying - you want Honda to accept the mass media criticism that the Civic is now too soft and not edgy enough. In other words, you want Honda to follow the word of *your* god rather than John Q Public's god. I'm an atheist and a rationalist. I think they did the right thing and delivered substance rather than image and marketing puffery.
I don't work for Honda. I've owned nine of them personally (including an Acura) in the last fifteen years. I've also owned BMWs, Toyotas, Mazdas, VWs, Porsche's and Subarus. I'm not a Civic fan or a Honda fan. I'm an automobile fan. I buy and sell lots of cars, all for my personal use. I admire vehicle models from any manufacturer that address the needs of their target segment well. I'm all for Honda developing a model or two that caters to enthusiasts. I'm against the notion that they should compromise the commute-worthiness of a particular model - the Civic - to make a handful of journalists and enthusiasts happy.
|
Hope you don't get fed up after a few posts and disapear for the next 5 years !
Either way; appreciated it.
|
Of course you appreciate it.
|
Definitely!
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nash24
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not surprising with the last two posts...
Hows the civic hybrid treating you DCR?
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danielgr
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superchg2 wrote:
DCR wrote:
danielgr wrote:
5-Honda-Man wrote:
"3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media "
But the mainstream media is bagging on the 2012 Civic for it's lack of enthusiastic performance. In other words, the criticism of the media is the same as the criticism of the disappointed enthusiast minority.
Honda specifically did NOT pander to the CD, R&T and MTs of the world. Instead they made a car that does a better job of satisfying the needs and preferences of more buyers. They bucked the media expectation rather than catering to it.
What you and other enthusiasts are pining for is exactly what you're decrying - you want Honda to accept the mass media criticism that the Civic is now too soft and not edgy enough. In other words, you want Honda to follow the word of *your* god rather than John Q Public's god. I'm an atheist and a rationalist. I think they did the right thing and delivered substance rather than image and marketing puffery.
I don't work for Honda. I've owned nine of them personally (including an Acura) in the last fifteen years. I've also owned BMWs, Toyotas, Mazdas, VWs, Porsche's and Subarus. I'm not a Civic fan or a Honda fan. I'm an automobile fan. I buy and sell lots of cars, all for my personal use. I admire vehicle models from any manufacturer that address the needs of their target segment well. I'm all for Honda developing a model or two that caters to enthusiasts. I'm against the notion that they should compromise the commute-worthiness of a particular model - the Civic - to make a handful of journalists and enthusiasts happy.
|
Hope you don't get fed up after a few posts and disapear for the next 5 years !
Either way; appreciated it.
|
Of course you appreciate it.
|
Definitely!
|
Besides, surprised I am worthy of both of your comments; you are both really restless in your quest. Keep it up until we all burn in the hell of those not agreeing with you !!!
Love,
Daniel
;)
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superchg2
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danielgr wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
DCR wrote:
danielgr wrote:
5-Honda-Man wrote:
"3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media "
But the mainstream media is bagging on the 2012 Civic for it's lack of enthusiastic performance. In other words, the criticism of the media is the same as the criticism of the disappointed enthusiast minority.
Honda specifically did NOT pander to the CD, R&T and MTs of the world. Instead they made a car that does a better job of satisfying the needs and preferences of more buyers. They bucked the media expectation rather than catering to it.
What you and other enthusiasts are pining for is exactly what you're decrying - you want Honda to accept the mass media criticism that the Civic is now too soft and not edgy enough. In other words, you want Honda to follow the word of *your* god rather than John Q Public's god. I'm an atheist and a rationalist. I think they did the right thing and delivered substance rather than image and marketing puffery.
I don't work for Honda. I've owned nine of them personally (including an Acura) in the last fifteen years. I've also owned BMWs, Toyotas, Mazdas, VWs, Porsche's and Subarus. I'm not a Civic fan or a Honda fan. I'm an automobile fan. I buy and sell lots of cars, all for my personal use. I admire vehicle models from any manufacturer that address the needs of their target segment well. I'm all for Honda developing a model or two that caters to enthusiasts. I'm against the notion that they should compromise the commute-worthiness of a particular model - the Civic - to make a handful of journalists and enthusiasts happy.
|
Hope you don't get fed up after a few posts and disapear for the next 5 years !
Either way; appreciated it.
|
Of course you appreciate it.
|
Definitely!
|
Besides, surprised I am worthy of both of your comments; you are both really restless in your quest. Keep it up until we all burn in the hell of those not agreeing with you !!!
Love,
Daniel
;)
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If arrogance was a virtue, you would be the most virtuous Belle at the Ball!
:)
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DCR
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nash24 wrote:
not surprising with the last two posts...
Hows the civic hybrid treating you DCR?
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Terrible. About 32 mpg combined, thanks for asking.
I should have bought another V6 Accord.
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WongKN
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5-Honda-Man wrote:
"3. Pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media "
But the mainstream media is bagging on the 2012 Civic for it's lack of enthusiastic performance. In other words, the criticism of the media is the same as the criticism of the disappointed enthusiast minority.
Honda specifically did NOT pander to the CD, R&T and MTs of the world. Instead they made a car that does a better job of satisfying the needs and preferences of more buyers. They bucked the media expectation rather than catering to it.
What you and other enthusiasts are pining for is exactly what you're decrying - you want Honda to accept the mass media criticism that the Civic is now too soft and not edgy enough. In other words, you want Honda to follow the word of *your* god rather than John Q Public's god. I'm an atheist and a rationalist. I think they did the right thing and delivered substance rather than image and marketing puffery.
I don't work for Honda. I've owned nine of them personally (including an Acura) in the last fifteen years. I've also owned BMWs, Toyotas, Mazdas, VWs, Porsche's and Subarus. I'm not a Civic fan or a Honda fan. I'm an automobile fan. I buy and sell lots of cars, all for my personal use. I admire vehicle models from any manufacturer that address the needs of their target segment well. I'm all for Honda developing a model or two that caters to enthusiasts. I'm against the notion that they should compromise the commute-worthiness of a particular model - the Civic - to make a handful of journalists and enthusiasts happy.
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I am really not sure where you read all these. Or maybe your understanding of english is different from mine. Not to say that who is right or wrong because after all, english is my second language. But if you have really been reading the mainstream media, you will see that what you are writing is far from what is the reality. The criticism of the mainstream media is the same as that of the enthusiast ? I wonder how many will agree with you there.
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