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CB77
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As I have previously mentioned here, Mr. Ito held a town hall meeting with American Honda employees at the Torrance Campus last week. I have selected some questions and answers that he covered at this meeting. I have selected only the topics that I feel would have any interest to those who frequent this site.
Those of us still hoping for a V10 or V12 NSX successor can quit hoping…as can those waiting for a V8 RL. He can’t make it much clearer that the CRZ is a peek into the future for Honda…based on a redefinition of “High Performance”…a definition where hard acceleration is traded for high efficiency and good power-to-weight ratios.
I was pleased with the frankness of some of the questions. Ito responded with the language that is typical of Honda executives that I have observed over the years. It will probably not be satisfying to many of you. In his opening statement, he said we have some very exciting new models under development for both the Honda and Acura sides of the ledger.
Here it is:
Q1: The sportiest car that Honda makes is now a Civic, from a Company that used to be so inspired by its racing development. How can it be acceptable that our product line is steering away so dramatically from sporty cars?
A1: I can tell you that the racing spirit still burns inside our engineers, it is part of our DNA, and we will continue to focus on developing cars that are fun to drive. However, we must acknowledge that we can do better and we must do better. Our approach will be a through efficiency and power to weight ratio. It will have nothing to do with a classic Ferrari, which has a 12 cylinder engine. We can’t get into such a world.
If we are going to think about being sporty, then we should express it through efficiency…the machine’s efficiency. So our machines will be smart, fuel efficient and sporty. I think that’s more like the path that Honda must follow. As you know, I used to be a part of the NSX development team, and we used an aluminum body on that model. I think it’s about time that we are making a new kind of a sports car and hopefully where the market is here in the U.S., we will develop it here and market it here.
Q2: You have said that you had involvement in the development of the new Civic. Now that the 2012 Civic has received lukewarm reviews from the U.S. press, what have you learned from this model?
A2: When we released the new Civic, we made it with the intentions in mind that it was the best value, performance and value for money. I would like you to know, that the Civic is a good car…it is a very good car, indeed. But we have to look back and reflect on ourselves with humility, that the competitors came up with very strong products, with a very good value for money.
So what we learned from this Civic, is that doing our best alone in not enough…we must study and observe the competitors and what they come up with , and also to really know the demands of the customers and what they expect. So when I talk about doing the best job…it must not be just for Honda, but for our customers. And that is what I truly learned from this Civic.
Q3: As a large corporation, Honda seems to be becoming a market follower, slow to innovate, slow to react, and afraid to take chances. Is the new goal of Honda to minimize risk and to create common products? If not…what can we do to recapture Honda’s innovative, challenging spirit?
A3: What we must do is to challenge. I think our customer wants a challenging Honda. So, considering that, I think we came up with a theme that we should come up with a good product, fast, and at an affordable price. And I list them in that order for a purpose, in order of importance. So for Honda’s product, it is important to provide the most fun, the most convenience and the most value. And also we must do so right-away…in a speedy manner. So, for the customer to think that Honda has such product, we must do something that no others can do, or are doing, and we must challenge new things.
Q4: In the past, Honda has done a great job of balancing cost, quality and styling. Recently, it feels like the balance has swung towards minimizing costs. Do you agree? And if so, are there plans to balance these characteristics to satisfy our customers?
A4: With our past product, it is true that we had a very good balance of performance, styling and the good value for money. So I believe that we may have been a little bit spoiled by our past history. So one more time, we must be sure of what to do…the balance of everything as the first and foremost priority is not what we want to do. We first must make sure that our customer enjoys our product…that it is fun to drive…that it is emotional…and if we are able to deliver that product, we will be seen to have a product with a good balance. So, what’s most important, the #1 top priority is to provide something that’s the best in service, product and any other things…to do it better than the competitors. So once you are able to create that and provide it to the customer, then we think about how we can do so with value for money…in that order. So I would like to ask all of you to please challenge to create something that is emotional and fun to drive and value for money in all of the services and delight the customer…and then we will think about how we can provide that with value for the money to our customers.
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CivicB18
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Pretty much everything he says or that needs to be improved seems to be in line with the way Honda used to operate. Why not simply just go back to the former ways of development while keeping a close eye on customer expectations and keeping an even sharper eye on the competition?! Honda is making this much much harder than it should be.
Regarding the Civic, it looks as if Honda made a mistake in a few areas as the current Civic doesn't have the status in its segment vs the 8th gen for 2 reasons. 1) would be too much emphasis on price and 2) the competition has some really really good products.
~Patrick
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MasterOfDaDomain
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It's good to read these comments, and hopefully Honda delivers products that match what Ito says.
"emotional and fun to drive" - let's see if Honda will truly deliver.
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LudegarH22A7
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In terms of my sincere affinity for Honda products, this truly allowed me to breathe a sigh of relief...
Great post.
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Ultima
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CB77 wrote:
Our approach will be a through efficiency
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Oh, I see. Like the much loved CRZ (/sarcasm).
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sfenders
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Ultima wrote:
Oh, I see. Like the much loved CRZ (/sarcasm).
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...except with a "good" power-to-weight ratio. Sounds fine to me, in theory. If the CRZ weighed 1745 lbs, it'd be good enough.
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atomiclightbulb
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CivicB18 wrote:
Regarding the Civic, it looks as if Honda made a mistake in a few areas as the current Civic doesn't have the status in its segment vs the 8th gen for 2 reasons. 1) would be too much emphasis on price and 2) the competition has some really really good products. |
This is more or less how I feel about the Civic. The 9G has a lot of great engineering in it. The powertrain is simple, yet powerful & efficient; the body structure is very light for its class, yet earns the highest IIHS ratings; Ergonomics and controls are clear and driver oriented.
However, it's clearly a vehicle that's built to a price point and not to a higher standard. That much is clear from the adequate interior materials and fewer interior conveniences. With the U.S. economy stagnant and faltering, maybe this austere USDM-specific vehicle is appropriate for austere times when the population just doesn't want or have the extra money to spend. But I do think Honda should aspire to a high standard and not just a low price point.
I'd just like to know how much American Honda input the Japanese design team received. Surely someone must have noted the abundance (some reviewers though excessive) number of interior textures. Surely someone must have read the dealer demands for Bluetooth on even basic trims. Surely someone at Honda Europe must have taken a look at what Ford and GM were already producing for the EU and planning to bring to the U.S.. I can't help but feel that if Honda Japan, America, and Europe had communicated with each other better, things might have been different. I also think Honda could learn a thing or two from Apple -- a company that builds products to a very high standard, but at a reasonable price. A $999 MacBook Air is somewhat pricey by today's standards for a notebook computer, but the end user gets something that has a high level of quality, durability, and usability. There is immense attention to detail and user experience in such a product. That's the kind of standard that vehicles like the 5G Accord and 8G Civic were designed and built to. I actually think that the 9G Civic's underlying engineering lives up to that standard. It's in the interior and feature set where it doesn't meet expectations.
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TonyEX
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
.. I also think Honda could learn a thing or two from Apple -- a company that builds products to a very high standard, but at a reasonable price. A $999 MacBook Air is somewhat pricey by today's standards for a notebook computer, but the end user gets something that has a high level of quality, durability, and usability. There is immense attention to detail and user experience in such a product. That's the kind of standard that vehicles like the 5G Accord and 8G Civic were designed and built to. I actually think that the 9G Civic's underlying engineering lives up to that standard. It's in the interior and feature set where it doesn't meet expectations.
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Apple does a bunch of design and all of its manufacturing in China.
That's how their prices are "reasonable" while their margins are high.
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atomiclightbulb
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TonyE wrote:
Apple does a bunch of design and all of its manufacturing in China.
That's how their prices are "reasonable" while their margins are high. |
That's not a complete picture I think. Do you have a link or source for that?
If you look at notebook computers from Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and other major vendors, they are all manufactured in China. Many of the designs are largely outsourced to Original Design Manufacturers in Taiwan, who have factories in mainland China and build the notebooks under contract to major companies.
And yet, despite having the same advantages as Apple: low cost of manufacturing in China and ability to outsource designs to Asia, none of the other major PC vendors have the margins that Apple does. None of the other major PC vendors even builds stuff that has the elegance and quality of Apple machines. I've exclusively used Dell for work for many years because Microsoft Windows is a requirement for the work I do, but everytime I use a Mac or try one out at an Apple Store, the difference in hardware design is like night/day.
There's an interesting article from Ars Technica on how Apple is able to get a superior design at reasonable cost while its competitors need help from Intel: http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2011/09/ultrabook-intels-300-million-plan-to-beat-apple-at-its-own-game.ars/1
In short, relative to the product lineups of Windows competitors, Apple's product lineup is smaller (fewer models), and each product has highly integrated system boards with few variations. This results in better economies of scale. Instead of ordering smaller numbers of numerous types of components, Apple orders numerous amounts of fewer components. Result: lower cost per unit.
I don't know how much design Apple outsources to Taiwan and China, but Steve Jobs is notoriously picky (the nicest way I can put it) and I'm not sure how a design team 1000s of miles overseas can collaborate effectively with such a crazed person. There would have to also be significant coordination with Apple head designer Jonathan Ive, the mechanical engineering team, the electrical engineers who design & test the system boards, the OEM suppliers of components and software drivers, and the MacOS X development team. Apple has roughly 50k employees, roughly 1/4 the size of Honda. As they outsource much of their manufacturing, a substantial number must be engineers. They can't all be Apple Store Genius bar people. Apple must still conduct a substantial amount of its design work in the U.S.. No offense to any Chinese or Taiwanese members here, but Taiwanese ODM design is often pretty dreadful in terms of aesthetics. I have friends working in China. They all say that the Chinese mentality right now is sort of ok at copying things (see knockoff Apple Stores, IP piracy, even whole amusement parks like "Universe of Starship" which basically copy popular U.S. video game themes), and not so good at original design.
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DCR
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Once Jobs loses his battle to cancer (which I wish on no one), it will be interesting to see if Apple can maintain the essence he brought.
Apple might be Honda 2.0
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TonyEX
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as far as I'm concerned apple lost it when they dropped the power PC for the x86 architecture.
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Dean Stevenson
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TonyE wrote:
as far as I'm concerned apple lost it when they dropped the power PC for the x86 architecture.
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Err, what about the iPhone? The iPad? And haven't Mac sales climbed higher than ever before? Aren't they gaining market share? What makes you claim claim "Apple lost it" by dropping powerpc?
As for the latest Civic, I don't have a problem with it. It was built to be good value for money and it's hard not to agree that it is. It's the rest of the lineup I have a problem with. It is sad to me that the rest of the world appears to clamor for a CRX replacement yet Honda adamantly won't provide a purely petrol based CRZ. That's kind of cutting your nose off to spite your face isn't it? It's this rigid mindset that I dislike.
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superchg
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Dean Stevenson wrote:
It is sad to me that the rest of the world appears to clamor for a CRX replacement yet Honda adamantly won't provide a purely petrol based CRZ. That's kind of cutting your nose off to spite your face isn't it? It's this rigid mindset that I dislike.
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Dean,
why not use the K20 and the IMA together, along with the 6 speed, in a CRZ Si?
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atomiclightbulb
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TonyE wrote:
as far as I'm concerned apple lost it when they dropped the power PC for the x86 architecture.
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Nice try at dodging. Are you going to respond to my points, or continue to post non-responsive bullshit?
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CB77
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CB77 wrote:
A4: With our past product, it is true that we had a very good balance of performance, styling and the good value for money. So I believe that we may have been a little bit spoiled by our past history. So one more time, we must be sure of what to do…the balance of everything as the first and foremost priority is not what we want to do. We first must make sure that our customer enjoys our product…that it is fun to drive…that it is emotional…and if we are able to deliver that product, we will be seen to have a product with a good balance. So, what’s most important, the #1 top priority is to provide something that’s the best in service, product and any other things…to do it better than the competitors. So once you are able to create that and provide it to the customer, then we think about how we can do so with value for money…in that order.
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This, to me, sounds like he is saying that they understand that with the 9G Civic, they got too far into the cost considerations, at the expense of the fun-to-drive, emotional, "delightful vehicle" qualities.
It seems to me that cost considerations are so basic in the design of a vehicle, that they have to be factored in even when you have a blank sheet of paper before you, on the drawing board. I don't see how you can design a neat vehicle, without cost considerations, and then when the design is final...come back through and see how you can get the price down to where you want it.
While I agree with what he says needsto be done...I'm not sure it can be done in a world of 76-77 yen to the $. If they have to move all production to 3rd world countries, I'm not sure quality would be maintained...plus the political problems that would come with that approach.
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CB77
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DCR wrote:
Once Jobs loses his battle to cancer (which I wish on no one), it will be interesting to see if Apple can maintain the essence he brought.
Apple might be Honda 2.0
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Yes, DCR, I think you may be right. I know I sound like a broken record, but Honda's inability to replace Mr. Honda [and to a lesser degree, Mr. Fujisawa] (both impossible tasks) is a big part of "what is wrong with Honda". That and the adverse $/yen rates.
Mr. Honda energized the whole company, even at his advanced age. Yes, he retired in 1973...but he retained the title of "Supreme Advisor" until his death in 1991. And I can assure you, he was still a commanding presence until the very end. If you don't, or haven't, worked for Honda, you cannot fully understand this.
He provided the inspiration and drive for the engineers...and the strong $ against the yen allowed us to sell those marvelous vehicles at a very attractive price. This truly allowed us to build up to a standard, not down to a price.
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PGH
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As we all know Honda hs been sitting on it's hands for some time. This did not happen overnight with the new Civic. I would say at least 5 years and counting.
I find the statement about they need to study the competiton more hard to swallow. You can't tell me Honda just woke up and found Hyundia is catching up quick. I think they are having a really hard time trying to balance overall product cost. It seems the accountants and engineers are playing tug-a war with each new FMC. And it's not only Honda. The new Camry is not that much different than the last one but it seems they spent the money in the right places which gives the car a more new like impression.
Honda will never go back to the 80's were the engineering culture ruled but I think they can do a better job with product development. Why did we get the Crosstour and ZDX. Honda should have the TSX wagon with option for AWD and a V6.
Finally will Honda turn the ship around and how long will it take. Is it to late?
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longhorn
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Q1: The sportiest car that Honda makes is now a Civic, from a Company that used to be so inspired by its racing development. How can it be acceptable that our product line is steering away so dramatically from sporty cars?
A1: I can tell you that the racing spirit still burns inside our engineers, it is part of our DNA, and we will continue to focus on developing cars that are fun to drive. However, we must acknowledge that we can do better and we must do better. Our approach will be a through efficiency and power to weight ratio. It will have nothing to do with a classic Ferrari, which has a 12 cylinder engine. We can’t get into such a world.
If we are going to think about being sporty, then we should express it through efficiency…the machine’s efficiency. So our machines will be smart, fuel efficient and sporty. I think that’s more like the path that Honda must follow. As you know, I used to be a part of the NSX development team, and we used an aluminum body on that model. I think it’s about time that we are making a new kind of a sports car and hopefully where the market is here in the U.S., we will develop it here and market it here.
This has me thinking of the Honda of old. Remember in the late 80s when the Prelude had 4WS, it was fwd but one of the most fun to drive cars of all time, however,it was slow in the 0-60 times. I remember 8.5 secs from C&D. The same can be said of the first Integra with its near 10 seconds 0-60 times,but the engine reved liked nobody's business and it handled great too.
So it appears Honda wants to go back to that mold. Make the cars light,yet still get 5 star ratings crash ratings. Make the ride firm yet compliant, so do not expect whisper quiet rides. Make the car a joy to drive yet efficient, so do not expect Honda to be the fastest in 0-60 times,but have the sweetest exhaust note this side of a Porsche. My opinon is that the upcoming Honda Accord due to go on sale next spring will the first car to be developed under the new "old" Honda way.
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GoFaster
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"I think it’s about time that we are making a new kind of a sports car and hopefully where the market is here in the U.S., we will develop it here and market it here."
A new kind of sports car? As in slow with heavy understeer because it is front wheel drive? With all of the government regulations I don't think it is possible to build a light weight car without expensive metals. I don't claim to be an expert on car design but to me FWD on a heavy car can't compete with RWD or AWD. Car and Driver just compared handling on 6 cars under $40,000 and sixth and fifth went to the only FWD cars.
The NSX and S2000 were GREAT sports cars, but does Honda have a problem with being able to keep great cars fresh? How is it that Corvettes, 911s, and perhaps MX-5 are built for decades, but Honda comes out with a great car sporty car (let me throw the RSX on that pile too), but then just lets them die?
Depending on how this new Toyota/Subaru is priced, it may just destroy Si sales. Then Honda is left just selling basic bland reliable transportation. Where the heck is that panic button.
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CB77
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I guess what is frustrating to me is thinking about the great engines and cars that Honda could build, but now never will. I am talking about some honkin' big V8's or V10's...or even some new screaming 4's and 6's.
To me, it feels like having a brilliant child who does not apply himself to his studies. Just think what wonderful engines and cars that Honda, the world's largest (and I think best) engine manufacturer could create if its engineers were cut loose.
The realities of high (and increasing) fuel costs, a worldwide economic recession and an adverse (and rapidly worsening) $/yen rate are obviously helping Ito to make this decision about the future direction of Honda.
Honda made great "emotional and fun-to-drive" cars in the 70's and 80's...all the while using only 4 cylinder engines. Maybe we can again, but now there seems to be such a fixation on higher horsepower, I think it is going to be very hard.
Being a long-time internal combustion engine fan, it saddens me to see the early stages of its demise. It may not fully happen in our lifetimes, but it will happen.
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rev2damoon
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I take no solace nor get any relief what-so-ever from reading those comments. We've seen these types of comments from Mr. Ito before. Yet, we still ended up with a friggin' TSX engine in the 9th gen Si, a softer suspension, less "mod-ability", etc. So, the CR-Z is the future, is it? It's a nice car for what it is, but where is the enthusiast version? Surely Honda cannot believe that this horribly underpowered version of that car will satisfy ALL of their customers.
If this is Honda's idea of the future, then as a Honda enthusiast, I really want no part of it. What drew me to Honda was their tight-handling, tactile cars with stratuspheric engine redlines. Seems to me they're totally consumed with satisfying the mainstream and saving the planet from the supposed doom of human-induced GW. I've nothing against hybrids or wanting to reduce dependence on fossil fuels, but this trend killing everything that appeals to the enthusiast doesn't sit well with me at all.
That faction within Honda that wants to do away with the enthusiast crowd can claim victory as far as I'm concerned.
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TonyEX
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Dean Stevenson wrote:
TonyE wrote:
as far as I'm concerned apple lost it when they dropped the power PC for the x86 architecture.
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Err, what about the iPhone? The iPad? And haven't Mac sales climbed higher than ever before? Aren't they gaining market share? What makes you claim claim "Apple lost it" by dropping powerpc?
As for the latest Civic, I don't have a problem with it. It was built to be good value for money and it's hard not to agree that it is. It's the rest of the lineup I have a problem with. It is sad to me that the rest of the world appears to clamor for a CRX replacement yet Honda adamantly won't provide a purely petrol based CRZ. That's kind of cutting your nose off to spite your face isn't it? It's this rigid mindset that I dislike.
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With the Power PC we could buy a Mac, junk their OS and install a real OS like VxWorks and use it as a low cost development tool.
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TonyEX
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
TonyE wrote:
as far as I'm concerned apple lost it when they dropped the power PC for the x86 architecture.
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Nice try at dodging. Are you going to respond to my points, or continue to post non-responsive bullshit?
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Someone made a comment about Apple. I answered it.
From the first Apple computer, they used Big Endian chips and eventually they moved to RISC processors.
When they moved to the x86 architecture, with its little endian set up and no real pipeline, they blew it. They joined the Microsoft way of looking at things: If the OS is bloated, just make the chip faster.
RISC processors are very efficient.
There.
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JMU R1
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TonyE wrote:
Apple does a bunch of design and all of its manufacturing in China.
That's how their prices are "reasonable" while their margins are high.
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As atomiclightbulb said, this is pretty far off base. All of the other PC manufacturers get their components made in Taiwan and China. So if it were as simple as just producing stuff in Taiwan and China, Apple wouldn't be sitting on $76 billion in cash reserves.
Apple actually does the vast majority of their design stateside, and gets the production done in China and Taiwan. For Apple, design (hardware and software) is their key differentiator and is the main reason they can charge a premium for their products. They've also tied that in with high quality of hardware and exceptional marketing to maintain their premium market positioning.
Perhaps the most important reason Apple has high margins is that they avoid getting into 'races to the bottom' with other hardware manufacturers. They can do this because they don't license OS X or iOS and thus, don't compete with commodity hardware vendors.
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JMU R1
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PGH wrote:
I find the statement about they need to study the competiton more hard to swallow.
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Tell me about it. I was somewhat shocked in the Civic press intro when I asked the Civic large project leader what were their benchmarks for the Civic Si. "We had no benchmarks." Ruh-oh.
Perhaps it's a common thing in the automotive industry to say something like that but to me it's a huge red flag that they didn't take the sport compact competition into account with the Si. Could be indicative to a larger attitude of complacency at Honda.
But then again, maybe Honda has never really used any benchmarks when developing Si's.
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NealX
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^^^As I keep saying, Honda needs to only compete with itself - then everything will be good. Be honest to your founding vision.
I don't care about the competition!
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Nick GravesX
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GoFaster wrote:
"I think it’s about time that we are making a new kind of a sports car and hopefully where the market is here in the U.S., we will develop it here and market it here."
A new kind of sports car? As in slow with heavy understeer because it is front wheel drive? With all of the government regulations I don't think it is possible to build a light weight car without expensive metals. I don't claim to be an expert on car design but to me FWD on a heavy car can't compete with RWD or AWD. Car and Driver just compared handling on 6 cars under $40,000 and sixth and fifth went to the only FWD cars.
The NSX and S2000 were GREAT sports cars, but does Honda have a problem with being able to keep great cars fresh? How is it that Corvettes, 911s, and perhaps MX-5 are built for decades, but Honda comes out with a great car sporty car (let me throw the RSX on that pile too), but then just lets them die?
Depending on how this new Toyota/Subaru is priced, it may just destroy Si sales. Then Honda is left just selling basic bland reliable transportation. Where the heck is that panic button.
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A FWD car doesn't NEED to have that plough-on understeer. IF you give it active 4WS with counter-steer.
Honda has already demonstrated that; you can also reduce the front castor due to the additional stability & have really lovely, uncorrupted steering.
In one of Honda's previous crazy attacks, they stopped developling it & now BMW and Infiniti have them shamed with RWD applications. Even Renault now has it.
Instead, we get ridiculously over-sprung & under-damped chassis to make them SEEM spurty so they bounce all over the road; the old Prelude was fairly compliant in that department, too.
Their use of balancer shafts mean four-bangers can be reasonably refined; I really dislike others downsizing from sixes without them.
Honda HAS the technology to make decent cars. I don't believe there is an excuse for shoddy plastics. Well, not that shoddy anyway.
SH-AWD can work with high-power models; so could their old ATTS in an updated form.
I believe that they just need to wake TF up, sniff the competition and start making modern versions of old Hondas; Z600s for the MINI market, a new Prelude and some kind of S3000/NSX-lite.
Oh, and sharpen up the 'cooking' models; there's nothing intrinsically wrong with any of them; hell, correctly specced, a new RDX & MDX might even work globally.
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atomiclightbulb
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TonyE wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
TonyE wrote:
as far as I'm concerned apple lost it when they dropped the power PC for the x86 architecture.
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Nice try at dodging. Are you going to respond to my points, or continue to post non-responsive bullshit?
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Someone made a comment about Apple. I answered it.
From the first Apple computer, they used Big Endian chips and eventually they moved to RISC processors.
When they moved to the x86 architecture, with its little endian set up and no real pipeline, they blew it. They joined the Microsoft way of looking at things: If the OS is bloated, just make the chip faster.
RISC processors are very efficient.
There.
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What does any of this have to do with the quality of Apple's products from the end-user perspective? My point was that Honda could learn a thing or two from Apple about how a quality, well-designed product makes for a good end-user experience despite a reasonable price tag.
Your response about China being responsible for the low costs was at best a fraction of the story, and your tangent about CPU architectures has nothing to do with the quality of the hardware and software that the user interfaces with.
Not only that, but your information on CPUs is largely incorrect: Intel processors have been heavily pipelined since the release of the Pentium Pro in the mid-1990's. The first 64-bit Intel Processor that Apple used, the Core 2 Duo, is a 14-stage design:
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2006/04/core.ars/5
I've said this to you numerous times: if you're going to make these kinds of wild assertions, you'd better back them up with some kind of source. When you write un-cited statements that are blatantly wrong, you look like you're either trolling, or you don't know what you're talking about.
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aznxthuggie
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The answers he gave just seem to be a rehash of what they have been doing for awhile. I mean seriously, some of these are like non-answers, where there was a reply, but didn't actually answer the question.
PGH wrote:
Why did we get the Crosstour and ZDX. Honda should have the TSX wagon with option for AWD and a V6.
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Those vehicles still make the mind boggle to this day. In a company that values efficiency, neither was a good idea, especially the ZDX. Regardless of cost, even just on principal, the ZDX should have never made it to production, It's the anti-honda vehicle. Why would they allow this, yet cut the supercar and V8 program? yea yea cost i know, they should have simply cut the ZDX as well.
The crosstour (idea), should have been an acura, and the TSX Wagon (idea) should have been a honda. Think about it, a car the length of a TL, with projectors, V6, leather clad, quiet and nice riding (so I've heard).. which part of that didn't fit acura's image? They really should have canned the crosstour and made a TL SHAWD 5 door instead.
Then there's the TSX Wagon. It appears to be doing well, but as good as the car is, honda needs an I4 wagon, not acura.
Another few vehicles are the:
CR-Z - stretching the car slightly to make room for actual rear seats, even if just 2, would have boosted sales significantly. Replace the small engine with a slighty larger engine (R18?) to give it some more pep while still get decent FE.
Element - Why did they let it die? They could have improved the ride, replaced the rear doors with something more practical and increase rear seat room with a FMC. Let the CR-V be the "tame" family suv, let the element be the "sporty" suv.
PGH wrote:
Finally will Honda turn the ship around and how long will it take. Is it to late?
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For me, it's too late. Not just the rate at which their vehicles are coming out, or their reluctance to fix long standing problems like NVH (it took 9 generations of civic for them to fix it, according to reviews since they say this civic is significantly quieter than the 8g), but the approach and attitude that they're taking to update and introduce their vehicles. Like how bluetooth still isn't standard across their entire lineup yet.
Unlike toyota, which usually introduces their new tech at the FMC, and make minor MMC adjustments. Honda tries to use old tech in their FMCs, then have significant MMCs to introduce new tech.
For example:
TL and MDX, introduced with the 5 speed auto and only get 6 speed autos in their MMCs? in the MY's 2012 and 2010? I mean are you kidding me? Do they know how angry and pissed off I was after i dropped close to $40k (incl loan) and I found out people that bought the car less than a year after me paid almost the same price but got a significantly improved vehicle with more features.. and I was left with a vehicle that gets worse MPG with a few huge flaws I found out after I bought the vehicles that I didn't realize before I bought it?
The RDX introduced without FWD model, memory seat, power passenger seat (seriously acura?), and a few other old features they neglected to include upon its release.
Anyways, it's too late for me. Initially, I was hellbent on talking my parents into an insight or civic hybrid, but they're looking at a prius now and will buy in the next few months.
I was going to help my bro upgrade from my 8g civic into a 9g civic hybrid, but decided not to when we went to look at it. Having driven the civic for as long as I've had my TL, his first impression in the showroom was: "Why does it look so cheap?" and was instantly turned off by the car. A 4 passenger CR-Z or fit hybrid would fit him well, but they don't make either.
For me, ever since I was young, I dreamed of owning an acura coupe/hatch, specifically, the 3 door integra. That car turned into the RSX, which I also wanted. However, when I was actually able to buy a car myself, they stopped producing both that and the CL.
I am still looking for a new car myself, I'm not happy with my TL and will be getting another car as soon as something decent comes around. My vehicle choices were all over the place, I am waiting for the CR-V, RDX refresh, sub-TSX, but now, at least for the moment, I took all of those vehicles off my list.
Why? Well like i said earlier, Acura has a way of slowly introducing features into their cars, esp during the MMCs, so I will simply not consider any acura/honda until the MMC. That and the fact that they're still not taking NVH seriously, unlike other manufacturers that have been making quiet cars for decades.
What I'm looking at now? Well at the top of my list is the new camry, specifically the hybrid and SE models. They're cheaper, more efficient, has a full feature set, and is better performing than the last gen. Can you say the same about any honda or acura?
Shortly after that, the upcoming Lexus IS, which should be a shortened GS (which from all the preview drives, is apparently an amazing vehicle) The IS may not be as big as the TL (with is a very small midsize), but it's a significantly smoother and more refined vehicle.
If anything, the earliest I'd be looking at another honda/acura will be starting with the CR-V's MMC in MY2015 (and the RDX following it), or if they introduce a 5 door acura, which i'd consider at its MMC. All of which are at least 4 years away.
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WingZ
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CB77 wrote:
As I have previously mentioned here, Mr. Ito held a town hall meeting with American Honda employees at the Torrance Campus last week. I have selected some questions and answers that he covered at this meeting. I have selected only the topics that I feel would have any interest to those who frequent this site.
Those of us still hoping for a V10 or V12 NSX successor can quit hoping…as can those waiting for a V8 RL. He can’t make it much clearer that the CRZ is a peek into the future for Honda…based on a redefinition of “High Performance”…a definition where hard acceleration is traded for high efficiency and good power-to-weight ratios.
I was pleased with the frankness of some of the questions. Ito responded with the language that is typical of Honda executives that I have observed over the years. It will probably not be satisfying to many of you. In his opening statement, he said we have some very exciting new models under development for both the Honda and Acura sides of the ledger.
Here it is:
Q1: The sportiest car that Honda makes is now a Civic, from a Company that used to be so inspired by its racing development. How can it be acceptable that our product line is steering away so dramatically from sporty cars?
A1: I can tell you that the racing spirit still burns inside our engineers, it is part of our DNA, and we will continue to focus on developing cars that are fun to drive. However, we must acknowledge that we can do better and we must do better. Our approach will be a through efficiency and power to weight ratio. It will have nothing to do with a classic Ferrari, which has a 12 cylinder engine. We can’t get into such a world.
If we are going to think about being sporty, then we should express it through efficiency…the machine’s efficiency. So our machines will be smart, fuel efficient and sporty. I think that’s more like the path that Honda must follow. As you know, I used to be a part of the NSX development team, and we used an aluminum body on that model. I think it’s about time that we are making a new kind of a sports car and hopefully where the market is here in the U.S., we will develop it here and market it here.
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I'm good with this as the HSC was wonderful but cancelled as people were complaining not enough HP so Fuqui cancelled it and started the V10 project.
Honda if your reading no need to do extensive research just re-engineer the HSC to accept IMA since you want it to be hybrid and drop in the ASC/HSV 8spd dsg.
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