Nine out of F1's ten teams have signed a document to help 'Super Aguri' launch a late bid for the 2006 grand prix grid.
After the FIA turned down the Honda-backed Japanese outfit, reportedly because of missing paperwork, Max Mosley invited team chief Aguri Suzuki to re-apply, with Williams' missed deadline in 1993 as a precedent.
But this publication can reveal that every team except Midland's 'MF1 Racing' has signed the document prepared by Super Aguri owing support to the Leafield based outfit. Without unanimity, Aguri cannot succeed in a late entry.
Midland's refusal is probably explained by the fact that only the top ten teams share F1's TV revenue each year. An eleventh team, therefore, would threaten Colin Kolles-led MF1's slice of the grand prix cake.
We can also reveal that 'Super Aguri' has already agreed to sign Bernie Ecclestone's 2008 Concorde Agreement, meaning that the F1 supremo will be keen to convince Midland - another signatory - to tow the line.
The Toyota Engine in back of it would of course have nothing to do with it?
I hope Midland never needs an engine other tham Toyota.
If they think Toyota can be trusted or not Midland should check with ; Dan Gurney, CART, World Rally, Juha Kankhunnen(apology for spelling), Mika Salo, Allan Mcnish, Olivier Panis, Cristiano Da Matta, and many others.
man fuck the toyota bull shit for a minute. i think the lost revenue if midland wasn't a top 10 team is more than a good enough reason. why does it always have to be toyota this and toyota that...
Dren wrote: man fuck the toyota bull shit for a minute. i think the lost revenue if midland wasn't a top 10 team is more than a good enough reason. why does it always have to be toyota this and toyota that...
Agreed. there is way to much hate for Toyota. Perhaps its some deep down envy that Toyota is the bigger company with arguably better brand image not through products but through self promotion. Midland desperately needs money and they cannot afford to get their buts kick by Super Cucumber.
In this instance I too don't understand how Toyboat was brought into the discussion. Midland needs all the money they can get for sure, as next year they are already without an engine supply as most likely Williams will acquire the 2nd Toyboat engine labeled Lickus. So they need cash to pay for a customer engine from somebody, most likely it will be Cosworth power.
It would be a bitter blow for an upstart company, Midland is not in my eyes as they took over Jordan, to beat them using a 2002 chassis.
They (Toyota) would not want the negative publicity from blocking Super Aguri F1. Already the publicity from Sato not being in F1 is so bad, Toyota's extremely smart PR people will surely know the amount of backlash if it becomes known that THEY (Toyota) are the one who prevented Japan's all time favourite F1 driver from being in F1 again next year.
Also, regardless of them getting Honda help or being Honda supporters, Aguri Suzuki and his associates (Keiichi Tsuchiya, Takahashi Kunimitsu, etc) holds so much sheer influence over motor and motorsports fan in Japan that no manufacturer in their right minds will want to offend them. If anything, I think Toyota might even eventually play a part in HELPING them join F1 next year, perhaps by dangling a carrot to the Midlands team with Lexus engines for 2007 or something. I think if I am Midlands, and knowing the politics in F1, I would certainly try to get something from being willing to sign the dotted line, especially if I know (and I am sure they will know), how important Super Aguri F1 is to Japan (and thus to Toyota and Honda).
They (Toyota) would not want the negative publicity from blocking Super Aguri F1. Already the publicity from Sato not being in F1 is so bad, Toyota's extremely smart PR people will surely know the amount of backlash if it becomes known that THEY (Toyota) are the one who prevented Japan's all time favourite F1 driver from being in F1 again next year.
Also, regardless of them getting Honda help or being Honda supporters, Aguri Suzuki and his associates (Keiichi Tsuchiya, Takahashi Kunimitsu, etc) holds so much sheer influence over motor and motorsports fan in Japan that no manufacturer in their right minds will want to offend them. If anything, I think Toyota might even eventually play a part in HELPING them join F1 next year, perhaps by dangling a carrot to the Midlands team with Lexus engines for 2007 or something. I think if I am Midlands, and knowing the politics in F1, I would certainly try to get something from being willing to sign the dotted line, especially if I know (and I am sure they will know), how important Super Aguri F1 is to Japan (and thus to Toyota and Honda).
Well, I don't share your views (in general) about this matter.
I am not saying that Toyota is behind it, but I really cannot understand why does it look so unconceivable for you people.
The image of Aguri in Japan, yeah, why not, but Aguri is not important to Toyota, he is important to Honda, because he has been always linked to Honda, and to Honda motorsports. Now Toyota want to takes Honda image of "Racing company", and they are doing everything they can to make people believe it. They've been releasing Honda-like staff for the past years every single day, and most people in many areas of the world already identify better Toyota with Racing than Honda.
In Japan though, it may not be so easy to convince fellows, because people here knows much more about both Honda and Toyota's history. And people like Aguri are living testimonies of Honda Racing.
If I where at Toyota, I would be very happy to have Takuma off the Formula 1 arena. Japan may be disappointed, but now that I'm been here for 4 months, I can finally fully understand why Taku was so important to Honda.
The fact is that many people don't even know that Honda is on F1, but if I say "Sato Takuma", then they inmediatelly say "Ah yes, F1 driver". And then this guy is in a new Honda commercial every two months.
Now that Toyota is going into F1, their team is even more popular in Europe than in his own country, and it is for sure linked to the fact that most people in Japan focus on their driver.
If Aguri is a real simbol for Japanese Racing, then the last thing that Toyota wants is having him on the F1 grid with Honda power and Takuma Sato at the wheel. For me it makes a lot of sense, enough to put pressure on Midland (in a win-win situation) not to accept the deal. And honestly, I don't think that anybody in Japan would ever think that Toyota is behind the move. Just because Japanese don't think about such things. So far, I've never come upon a normal person that feels any trouble between Honda and Toyota (of course, with the fans of one an another company it may be an issue, but for normal people, this fight just does not exist).
So again, most probable it has more to do with the TV money, but I don't see why the Toyota link is something so crazy.
Dren wrote: Maybe the Toyota F1 team would not have signed it if that was the case...but they did.
You missed the whole point. Toyota is certainly not stupid, otherwise it would not be the number one manufacturer on the planet (yeah, I know GM still sells more cars ..., but it's like a huge dinosaur diying).
If you read the post, it is very easy to understand why Toyota would in any case sign the paper. If they don't, first of all Japanese F1 fans would make them responsible for the fact that Takuma is not able to race. Moreover, they will blame them not to allow such a great racing personnality as Aguri race. This is certainly not the position where Toyota would like to be.
BUT, why would they need not to sign if Aguri needs the unanimity in any case ??? It does not matter if Toyota signes or not, because they can use Midland for that purpose, and keep their hands clean.
That way, they achieve objective number one regarding japanese market: Not to allow Takuma Sato and Aguri Suzuki to participate in F1 under Honda colours.
AND, they remain clean (and you can see how good it works in the simple fact that you wrote your post to tell me exactly that). To me, it is perfect situation.
AGAIN, I am not saying that they are actually doing it. JUST, that if it was the case (I don't think that anyone but Toyota and Midland knows that for sure), it would make sense. And it has nothing to do with "anti-Toy" spirit or anything like that. It's just plain arguments based on corporate marketing and image strategy.
Moreover, it may be a combination of factors. Midland's main reason may be their money (and Toyota inmensily happy about that but not directly involved). But Moxley is said to be willing to accept Aguri because they will put more people onto Concorde's side (currently they are even with GPWC). In that case, Moxley may be very well trying to help Midland in some way, making them some kind of offer. And in that case, Toyota may have entered the game by doing the opposite thing. Hey, Midland could even be trying to use this to keep Toyota engines for next year !!!!
For sure, I'm just having fun speculating. But, I don't see why any of this wouldn't make sens if it was true.
I'm sorry Daniel but in this case, I'm afraid I'll have to say that you do not understand the real situation with regards to Aguri Suzuki and his efforts in relation to the realities of the Japanese market. We got to look at the bigger picture, what Aguri Suzuki is doing in relation to bringing forward the efforts of promoting and moving japanese efforts into top level international racing. Don't forget that with any manufacturer, irregardless of how big their export market is, their own domestic market is, in the end, their home market and their level of prestige in that market, especially the japanese, is going to be the most important of all. The fact that Aguri Suzuki is currently doing it with Honda power is not important. The fact is that he (Aguri Suzuki) and his colleagues, people like Keiichi Tsuchiya and Takahashi Kunimitsu are extremely influential and powerful people in Japan. They can take any manufacturer apart just by giving them a bad reference. And they can make any comment they like about any manufacturer, good or bad, and those in the receiving end will not dare talk back. No one can afford to get bad raps from these people. And these people have not been totally Honda all the time. Suzuki himself did not win his podium in the early 90's with Honda power, it was with some other team. Keiichi Tsuchiya's greatest success in international racing (a P2 overall in the 24 hours of Le-Mans) was done with a Toyota prototype racing car. So it is the personality that is what I am talking about. I.e. for Toyota to be linked to hindering the efforts of Aguri Suzuki and company in bringing Japan into top level international racing. That is much much more damaging that anything else, even if Suzkui was to win with Honda power. Even that will not be damaging to Toyota (just good for Honda). But for Toyota to hinder Aguri Suzuki, that's quite near to being a national traitor in japanese eyes.
So it seems that you and I are in agreement that Toyota won't dare do it openly themselves. But I still think that their PR people are smart enough not to try something dangerous like making use of Midlands to do it. There are great dangers of it back-firing and the truth coming out that it was Toyota who was pulling the strings. Like I said, having Aguri Suzuki involved in F1 will only just be good for Honda. It won't do any damage to Toyota. But to be even remotely linked to any attempt to hinder Aguri Suzuki's effort to join F1, now that would be total suicide for Toyota. I for one feels that Toyota is smart enough not to even consider doing it (influencing Midlands to block Aguri Suzuki from getting into F1).
They (Aguri and colleagues) are not people you want to piss off. I once saw Keiichi Tsuchiya made some angry comments about a magazine and then threw it on to the floor in front of a TV camera and in front of the public. He did it because the magazine published something disparaging and tried to fuel fire between himself and Ichishima (of Spoon Sports). The TV camera focussed on Ichishima and it was clearly seen that Ichishima didn't know what to do, he dare not even make any movement, like a little body frozen in fear. Now, Ichishima himself is already quite imfluential in Japan. But they (Aguri and colleagues) are that powerful.
Perhaps Chris (IntegraDC5R) might have some corrections or things to add.
Dren wrote: man fuck the toyota bull shit for a minute. i think the lost revenue if midland wasn't a top 10 team is more than a good enough reason. why does it always have to be toyota this and toyota that...
I agree. Midland was already in desparate straits last year, with Minardi getting in front of them on the grid in several races. They started testing yesterday with another modification to the EJ15, which is really the EJ13 (Jordan's 2003 car) with very minor updates. Stories last year had Midland commissioning a new 2006 chassis design from Dallara last year, but that arrangement fell out mid-year. Shnaider hasn't put $0.05 into car development so far, so there is a fair chance that they will be running the EJ13 with another minor facelift in 2006. I thnk that Red Bull II is running the RB1 chassis with a detuned Cosworth, so they will probably be in front of Midland in 2006.
There is a real chance that if Aguri has a testing budget that they could be faster than Midland with an updated 2002 Arrows and a rev-limited Honda V10. Once Aguri gets a new chassis with a V8 (their anouncements indicated at Imola), Midland would have a permanent lock on the 11th row of the grid.
WongKN wrote: I'm sorry Daniel but in this case, I'm afraid I'll have to say that you do not understand the real situation with regards to Aguri Suzuki and his efforts in relation to the realities of the Japanese market. We got to look at the bigger picture, what Aguri Suzuki is doing in relation to bringing forward the efforts of promoting and moving japanese efforts into top level international racing. Don't forget that with any manufacturer, irregardless of how big their export market is, their own domestic market is, in the end, their home market and their level of prestige in that market, especially the japanese, is going to be the most important of all. The fact that Aguri Suzuki is currently doing it with Honda power is not important. The fact is that he (Aguri Suzuki) and his colleagues, people like Keiichi Tsuchiya and Takahashi Kunimitsu are extremely influential and powerful people in Japan. They can take any manufacturer apart just by giving them a bad reference. And they can make any comment they like about any manufacturer, good or bad, and those in the receiving end will not dare talk back. No one can afford to get bad raps from these people. And these people have not been totally Honda all the time. Suzuki himself did not win his podium in the early 90's with Honda power, it was with some other team. Keiichi Tsuchiya's greatest success in international racing (a P2 overall in the 24 hours of Le-Mans) was done with a Toyota prototype racing car. So it is the personality that is what I am talking about. I.e. for Toyota to be linked to hindering the efforts of Aguri Suzuki and company in bringing Japan into top level international racing. That is much much more damaging that anything else, even if Suzkui was to win with Honda power. Even that will not be damaging to Toyota (just good for Honda). But for Toyota to hinder Aguri Suzuki, that's quite near to being a national traitor in japanese eyes.
Well, I will just add two very simple thougths.
For you, this people are more important than Toyota. For me, Toyota is maybe one of the highest exponents of Japanese proud. This people feel proud of having Toyota as a company, and in Japan, companies are at the top of the society.
For you, it can only be good for Honda. But in Japan, every car that is sold by Honda is one that is not sold by Toyota. So, if people buy Honda's because Takuma is on an advert, Toyota loses clients because of that.
I'm not talking about enthusiasts, those are going to be loyal to their favorite companies anyway. But enthusiasts are not the ones that supports industries, the ones that do it are normal people.
Of course, I don't pretend to be any expert in Japan, and I may be wrong, but this is the way I see it.
And again, I'm just bringing some thoughts. I am not saying that I believe Toyota is behind it. Just that I don't understand why so many people put it as if it was something completelly stupid to think.
I understand your point, but I think Midland is more worried about funding so it can continue to run rather than some sort of Japanese company coup to keep the other out of racing.
All of the Toyota hate on this site just gets to me after a while. Yes I know it is a Honda fan site, and I am a loyal Honda guy, but c'mon. If it is any company in F1 that I dislike, it would have to be Ferrari because of the advantage they have buddying up with the FIA and the owners of F1.
So did Minardi sign it? It seems they did. Minardi should be far more threatened by the new team than Midland is. Minardi is also more experienced long term than Midland and would realize the potential down side yet they signed anyway.
So what is the big difference between the two teams?
As far as treams "buddying up to the FIA and Bernie" goes how does one suppose the FUJI race appears to be pushing Suzuka off the calender? Suzuka has been a fixture for a very long time. It has seen more consequitive races than all but a very few other tracks. There was certainly some very considerable "buddying up" involved in that.
whip wrote: The Toyota team signs the agreement, and the Toyota haters still blame them. Is Toyota responsible for the high fuel cost?
I hate Toyboat, but I don't put any blame on them. You should of said SOME. And for all we know, Toyboat is to blame for high fuel costs so they can try and sell more hybrid cars with their inferior system compared to Honda. hahaha just had to say it, since you put it out there. Of course I don't really believe this.
whip wrote: The Toyota team signs the agreement, and the Toyota haters still blame them. Is Toyota responsible for the high fuel cost?
I hate Toyboat, but I don't put any blame on them. You should of said SOME. And for all we know, Toyboat is to blame for high fuel costs so they can try and sell more hybrid cars with their inferior system compared to Honda. hahaha just had to say it, since you put it out there. Of course I don't really believe this.
Im sure some people on this forum believe Toyota was behind the The Holocaust WWI & WWII/911 attack/Beatles breakup/Ashlee Simpsons horrible singing etc... =-)
whip wrote: The Toyota team signs the agreement, and the Toyota haters still blame them. Is Toyota responsible for the high fuel cost?
I hate Toyboat, but I don't put any blame on them. You should of said SOME. And for all we know, Toyboat is to blame for high fuel costs so they can try and sell more hybrid cars with their inferior system compared to Honda. hahaha just had to say it, since you put it out there. Of course I don't really believe this.
Im sure some people on this forum believe Toyota was behind the The Holocaust WWI & WWII/911 attack/Beatles breakup/Ashlee Simpsons horrible singing etc... =-)
Im sure some people on this forum believe Toyota was behind the The Holocaust WWI & WWII/911 attack/Beatles breakup/Ashlee Simpsons horrible singing etc... =-)
Wouldn't suprise me one bit =)
Wouldn't suprise you if they were behind those things?
Let's me take a shot at those- I bet a Toyota AC unit caused Ashlee's sore throat. . . Yoko Ono wanted the Beatles to sell commercial rights to the music to Toyota, and it started the rift in the Beatles . . . Hell, I'm not touching the others though.
Im sure some people on this forum believe Toyota was behind the The Holocaust WWI & WWII/911 attack/Beatles breakup/Ashlee Simpsons horrible singing etc... =-)
Wouldn't suprise me one bit =)
Wouldn't suprise you if they were behind those things?
Let's me take a shot at those- I bet a Toyota AC unit caused Ashlee's sore throat. . . Yoko Ono wanted the Beatles to sell commercial rights to the music to Toyota, and it started the rift in the Beatles . . . Hell, I'm not touching the others though.
Haha, nice. Well we all know Toyota bombed Pearl Harbor because they thought the Ford and GM plants were there.
Actually it was Mitsubishi, if I remember correctly the Japanese Zeroes had Mitsubishi engines. So they were trying to take out Ford and GM, to help out future partner Chrysler.
IntegraDC5R wrote: Actually it was Mitsubishi, if I remember correctly the Japanese Zeroes had Mitsubishi engines. So they were trying to take out Ford and GM, to help out future partner Chrysler.
Ahh my mistake, I must have been sleeping in that part of history class! Toyota must have been paying off Mitsubishi to do its dirty work because Toyota is the root of all evil, don't forget that.
Yep! And you know what? The torpedo bomber for the US in the last half of the Pacific Campaign (after that terrible "Devastator" was finally put out to pasture) was the Avenger....
Now there were TWO designations for the Avenger (TBF and TBM)...guess who made the TBM Avenger? GM!! ;-)
floundericiousMI wrote: Yep! And you know what? The torpedo bomber for the US in the last half of the Pacific Campaign (after that terrible "Devastator" was finally put out to pasture) was the Avenger....
Now there were TWO designations for the Avenger (TBF and TBM)...guess who made the TBM Avenger? GM!! ;-)
My favorite plane ever had to be the P-38 Lighting or as the Japanese would call it the Fork Tailed Devil. One was credited for downing Admiral Yamamoto (the planner of the Pearl Harbor attack) while the admiral was in a scout plane.
![[home]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[dealer network]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/dealernet.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
